PMTS Adopts an Epic Skier? ;)

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PMTS Adopts an Epic Skier? ;)

Postby Heluva Skier » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:45 pm

I suppose this needs no introduction so I will get to it. Below is the MA request that was referred to in another thread here recently as it was posted on Epic:

Over the course of the summer, fall, and winter I did a lot of rethinking of my skiing, and when I hit the snow completely worked everything in my skiing. Some of the old habbits are there, but I am working to get rid of them. Most of the changes in my skiing have come from collective comments on my skiing from here and elsewhere, as well as a high level race coach that I converse with on a regular basis. Most of the aspects of my skiing that I am working on movements that are common to racing and PMTS, so finding similarities between the two will not be difficult. My goal is to take information that I gather here and at Epic (if anyone responds) and hopefully implement the advice during a trip that I am taking to Colorado in a few weeks. I hope to come back with video footage that shows some progress. If anyone is on dial-up and wishes to have me upload some smaller sized files for easier viewing, just shoot me a PM and I will try to get them together. Below you will see my what I have been watching for in my own skiing - so I would be happy to hear if you think I am on the right track or not. Thanks in advance for the replies.

Later

GREG

On giant slalom skis (186 Nordica Dobie GSR):
GS Skiing 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF1kuBMuNIE
GS Skiing 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLfOaUnC7E

On slalom skis (165 Nordica Dobie SLR):
SL Skiing 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA1CWo0ROEE
SL Skiing 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpxRF0lZvYs

Well, I have been working on my skiing a lot this year. GS1, GS2, and SL2 were all taken on the same day. SL1 was taken several weeks earlier. So... what have I been working on?

This season I completely re-worked my skiing. I narrowed my stance considerably, and worked heavily on my upper body position through the turn. I also worked extensively on transitions, and ridding myself of the up move that I had last year. Toward the end of this season (based on the SL1 video) I was able to see that in nearly all terrain I was dropping my inside hand on every turn (watch the video and you can see it clear as day). After that I worked on bringing that hand up in order to positively effect my upper body position through the turn (not lean in).

Since these videos were taken I have worked on quickening my slalom turns by speeding up the transition and release of the old turn, while focusing strictly on vertical separation of my stance. I also have been working on pivot entry turns in both slalom and giant slalom as a way to maintain speed control on steep groomers where clean carves are not always possible (think courses). Overall the goal has been balance, and not forcing anything to happen (angles, stance, etc). The turns are getting better, but are not what I'd like them to be, so any constructive advice anyone can offer would be very helpful.

In my opinion the transition still needs work, and the upper body position needs work because I drop inside the turn and follow the skis still. I have been skiing a lot of bumps and crud to focus on the transition and not standing up too much, and working on bringing my inside hand up and forward in all carved turns - hopefully getting into angluation versus banking so I stop getting 'stuck' inside the turn at the transition.

One more thing that I worked on... bringing my hips forward. I actually pulled the spoilers up in my Dobie 150 boots and that helped a lot. I think that the hips being back was a result of banking and then hunching to create pressure on the outside ski. Once I started angulating better and standing straighter my hips came forward more. Again, still not perfect though.

Let me know what you all think. As always, thanks for your responses.

Later

GREG
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Postby jbotti » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Greg, I personally would like to welcome you back!!

I saw your skiing on Epic and the work you have put in is obvious. You look like a different skier from a year ago (just to be clear, much improved). Congrats!! JB.
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Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:31 am

Nice skiing.

Its difficult to see in this video but I 'think' you could use move counter balance (and in particular it looks like the inside hip is lower than the outside hip).

How about counter? Again, its hard to see what you are doing in the clips. In PMTS we strive for a strong inside arm and a countered position.
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Postby BigE » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:43 am

Is the amount of counteraction insufficient for the radius of these turns?
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Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:16 am

BigE wrote:Is the amount of counteraction insufficient for the radius of these turns?


That is a very good question. I 'think' he could use more. The clue I'm using is the outside leg extension and the positioning of the upper body. It looks to me like the outside leg could be more extended at the apex. This is easier when you have the right amount of counter.
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Postby BigE » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:58 am

max,

Now I'll have to ask the question again, regarding extension. Is it not enough?

To be completely general, what I'm asking is that are each of the essentials applied to a sufficient degree to make these turns?

I am not asking in what way(s) these turns differ from the "model" turn.
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Postby jbotti » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:09 am

At the 9 second mark of the second GS run (second of the top two videos) this turns shows a ton of weight on the inside ski and the ceneter of mass is way inside. In PMTS we would call this inclination instead of counter balance. It is an issue that I continue to work on. It is evident in may other turns but this one has the best view of it.

I have spent a lot of time working on extreme conterbalancing with alot of focus on having the obliques contract. While I am practicing this I try to ask the question: How much weight is on the inside ski and how easy (impossible?) would it be to lift the inside ski.

I have found that turns with the appropriate amount of counterbalance will carve tighter arcs with less high edge angles than turns with inclination and higher edge angles. I think physics supports this.
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Postby jbotti » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:15 am

I found another place where it is even more pronounced. The 6 second mark of the second SL video (the last of the 4 you posted). I realize that you are cutting a very tight turn, but the weight is way inside, with huge amounts of banking.

Here is a great thread that Harald started on the subject of inclination.

http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... php?t=1491
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Postby Heluva Skier » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:20 am

Originally posted by BigE
To be completely general, what I'm asking is that are each of the essentials applied to a sufficient degree to make these turns?


If the answer is "no" then I want to know how I was able to make those turns! :shock:

I want to know how much more certain essentials need to be applied in order to make turns better than these. I think an investigation to that end reveals some areas that are lacking - specifically counter balance.

Originally posted by jbotti
I have found that turns with the appropriate amount of counterbalance will carve tighter arcs with less high edge angles than turns with inclination and higher edge angles. I think physics supports this.


I agree 100%. Not only does proper counter balance provide the ability to properly pressure the outside ski, but it also enables you to put the ski on edge much earlier in the turn, thus the ski will come around more quickly. One thing that has decreased over the last year is the amount of edge anlge that I need for a particular turn, and I have not implemented counter balance into my skiing as much as I should be - especially in slalom where it is a necessity.

Later

GREG
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Postby jbotti » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:43 am

I also think (at least for me) that improving counterbalance requires intense focus and concentration because you can carve some very good turns with less than ideal counterbalance (just look at Bode or Ted Ligety). Working on counterbalance doesn't always give intsant feedback. But as you have noted, when you really nail it, the skis engage earlier and the arc is tighter.

I don't love skiing on ice because of my issues with counterbalance. Having said this, for me, ice is a great teacher. I can't get even remotely agressive with edge angles on ice unless I realy focus on CB. As well, usually when I lean in, I almost immediately lose my edge momentarily.
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Postby BigE » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:42 pm

Heluva Skier wrote:
Originally posted by BigE
To be completely general, what I'm asking is that are each of the essentials applied to a sufficient degree to make these turns?


If the answer is "no" then I want to know how I was able to make those turns! :shock:
<snip>
I have not implemented counter balance into my skiing as much as I should be - especially in slalom where it is a necessity.


Then the answer is "no" :wink:
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Postby Heluva Skier » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:48 pm

serious wrote:Very nice skiing GREG, but I always felt that your skiing was excellent. Of course, anyone can improve and the fact that you are looking for improvement (and seems to have made visible changes) is even more impressive.

I hesitate to give any MA to you, but I would like to ask something. In your videos, do you have the intent to do pure PMTS turns? In other words, do you specifically look for an extension through the turn and a relaxation at transition?

I ask, because I cannot easily tell. You certainly do not have the gross up-move that many PSIA people show in their skiing, but you do move up a little bit. It almost seems that your "up-move" is not a push off the old stance foot, but rather an extension of the new stance foot (old inside foot).

I do believe that in longer turns such an extension of the new stance foot is sometimes inevitable, but you also have some of that in SL turns where it may not be necessary. Frankly, I may not really know what I am talking about here, so consider these as questions only. I think Harald's analysis (in adition to what was provided above) would be really benecifical here ... for all of us.


Thanks for the compliments!

To answer your question - no my intent is not PMTS turns. I race so my intent is race turns - or at least something that would easily hold up to the rigors of GS and SL skiing. PMTS very much mirrors racing (especially slalom skiing), so the similarities are inherrent. This is how I ski all the time (good or bad), so I wasn't trying for anything other than my usual carved turns. I do feel that the nuts and bolts behind the PMTS progression are something that should be present in all high level skiing and teaching.

The reason that I don't have the 'PSIA' look to my skiing is that I have nothing to do with PSIA. Some of my GS turns do have a touch of inside leg extension at the transition - and I will admit that I focus less on the flexing through the transition in GS (although I still keep it in the front of my mind when dialing in turns). In SL however... I focus on it and only pull it off well once in awhile... :? The SL turns need big time transition work as well as upper body work as others have pointed out [would you guess that GS is my stronger event?]. So - more specifically - I look for relaxation at the transition in my slalom turns and in my giant slalom turns, but to a lesser degree in the larger turns.

Later

GREG
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Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:54 pm

BigE wrote:Now I'll have to ask the question again, regarding extension. Is it not enough?


The goal is full extension by the apex. Take a look at Heluva's avatar. Notice the bend of the outside leg at that point which is almost apex.
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APEX definition ?

Postby geoffsep1963 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:08 pm

By apex, do we mean the fall line? Refer say page 130 Essentials

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Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:15 pm

The Apex is the point where the skis are pointed straight down the fall line. This is generally the half way point of a turn.
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