Notes from SCSA

[Hobbit]

I am posting this per SCSA request.

8<--- 8<--- 8<---


Good skiing is not?PMTS.
By SCSA

To begin, the biggest complaint against PMTS by those in the PSIA and epicski.com instructor forum is that PMTS is limiting and that it doesn?t lead to high level skiing. Another complaint by those in the instructor form against PMTS is that ?good skiing is good skiing?, meaning at the highest levels of skiing there?s no difference between PMTS and whatever else ? so why bother with PMTS. These same netizens also say that a skier needs a ?tool box full of tools?, meaning that a skier should ?learn it all?. This is just another way for them to say why bother with PMTS. Of course this last comment has always thrown me sideways, because one hand they say that a skier needs to learn it all, but on the other hand they steer (pun) skiers away from PMTS.

I recently downloaded and analyzed, frame by frame, a video of the past Epic Ski Academy 2007 in Aspen. The video I analyzed is some of the top skiers in PSIA, it includes current and former PSIA Demonstration Team members.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=52831

So let?s get started.

The first skier in the video @ 00.00.24 I believe is Bob Barnes, probably Harald?s harshest critic. Bob is a PSIA Rocky Mountain Examiner. @ 00.00.25 Bob is hitting a bump. He doesn?t release with his inside foot, he?s got a stem going. He recovers, but then he gets tip lead with his right foot and is now on both big toe edges. He?s behind on the next bump and is way late with his flexing. He recovers @ 00.00.27, but at this point he?s not skiing with his feet ? he?s using his upper body to carry him. He finishes off @ 00.00.29, in the back seat. Bob is skiing on soft snow, on a clear day, in easy bumps. Bob needs to work on pulling his inside foot back, which he really never does. Also, Bob never gets any edge control on the first few turns, he picks up speed and gets sloppy. But should work on pulling his inside foot back, starting the turn with his inside foot, and tipping ? getting on his edges. For someone of this level on this terrain and these conditions, I expect much better turns. Bob, in these turns, is not skiing what he professes to be good skiing. He?s not using his edges, his feet get out in front of him. If Bob would practice PMTS, he?d learn to keep his feet underneath him in the bumps, he?d learn to use his edges ? not the bases ? to ski bumps.

At 00.00.30, we get to see one of my favorite skiers, Jerry Berg. I really dig his skiing. Jerry is old time PSIA, one of the great ones. @ 00.00.31 and 32, notice how Jerry?s legs flex. He looks like Harald at this point. Notice how his hands are right there for the pole plant, how smooth he is. Jerry extends through the turn, flexes to start the new turn. He?s just pretty to watch. No one talks about Jerry on epic, yet Jerry is the best PSIA skier I?ve seen ? by far. Jerry doesn?t look like the rest of them. Jerry is also pushing 60. He?s just so elegant, like Harald.

At 00.00.39 I believe it?s Megan Harvey, current PSIA Demonstration Team member. Megan has perfected the ?up and around move?. Up and around is what we used to have to do on straight skis; plant the pole, go up and around it. Up and around is not needed with shaped skis and is definitely not, modern skiing. It?s also a very dangerous move, because the skis never really release ? they pivot. At 00.00.39 when she?s finishing the turn her new free foot ski tip is crossing over her new stance ski tip. This is dangerous. If there was more snow, her default move would have caused her to fall because the tips would be crossed. At 00.00.39 she has to hit the brakes, push her downhill ski out to the side. She?s pushing the skis when she should be arcing them. At 00.00.40 she goes back to her default move; up, and around. She?s A-framed at this point, does not use any leg flexion and does not release the downhill ski ? at all. She bangs her feet together which causes her free foot to move off to the side just enough so that she doesn?t cross her tips. At 00.00.41 her inside hand falls behind which throws off her balance. She goes up and around again, her skis pop-off the ground. She?s once again in a dangerous position ? skis should remain on the ground at all times. At 00.00.42 she gets bucked forward and is A-framed again. She goes up and around for a few more turns until 00.00.47 when she?s so far off she nearly falls. If there was more snow, her technique would have failed, she?d fall. She finishes at 00.00.50 with her inside hand behind again. Her skiing is not modern skiing at all. She?s skiing on a clear day in soft snow. I know where his is in Highland Bowl, it?s probably the easiest line there. It?s not that challenging, especially when considering the snow is so soft. I would expect to see much better turns from someone who?s this highly thought of. She might not pass a PMTS green exam. She needs a lot of work, starting with getting rid of her default move, the up and around. If she keeps skiing this way she?s going to get hurt because her tips will cross. She needs to learn how to do the High C, to release her downhill foot to start the turn. She needs to use tipping, instead of pushing the skis around.

At 00.00.50 I believe it?s the guy they call ?Shantzy?. His carve looks pretty good, but then at 00.00.51 he has a big pop-up, the dreaded up move. His inside hand is behind, his new inside hand doesn?t push forward through the turn, so it ends up behind, too. At 00.00.52 it?s another up move which results in an A-framed position. I don?t see him pausing, letting the skis engage. He rushes the next turn and at 00.00.55 he also rushes that turn. This guy needs to let his skis engage, by incorporating the High C into his turns. His hands are a little slow, he?s not pushing the inside hand through the turn. PMTS teaches a skier to be patient, to let the skis engage before starting the new turn. He doesn?t do that. Harald also teaches to drive the inside hand forward, through the turn, which he doesn?t do either. He?s strong, but he could use some refinements ? PMTS refinements ? to his technique.

At 00.00.55, I?m not sure who this is. I think it?s Bud H.? He?s skiing the bumps underneath the High Alpine chair, I call these tourist bumps. The bumps are small, and the snow is soft. It?s a clear day. He?s going along, from the chair skiers might say he?s good. But really, all this guy is doing is wiggling his butt and pivoting his skis. He?s not getting any edge engagement, he pivots his skis from turn to turn. Definitely not modern skiing, as espoused by those in the epicski.com instructor forum. He would not pass a PMTS green exam skiing this way. At 00.01.03 he hits a small bump and his skis jet out in front of him. Then, he?s out of control going into the next bump. This is poor bump skiing, definitely not what PMTS teaches ? at all. Then at 00.01.06 he?s pushing off his downhill ski ? hard edge set ? to get the new turn going. These are easy bumps in ideal conditions; he should be getting round turns and edge control. He gets neither. He gets tossed in easy bumps. He doesn?t pull his feet back, he doesn?t use his edges. In PMTS we learn to pull our feet back, to use our edges in the bumps. This guy could really benefit from a PMTS overhaul in his bump skiing.

So far I?ve seen just one skier, Jerry Berg, who?s impressive and who demonstrates modern skiing. But no one ever talks about Jerry.

At 00.01.09 it?s Bud H. again, I think. This guy is skiing more challenging terrain, a black run. But the bumps are small and the snow is soft. I believe this guy Bud is some kind of PSIA hero type. For someone like this, I would expect to see much better skiing. He?s sloppy. The first bump, he uses a hard edge set ? my back hurts watching it. Then he pops up with his skis off the snow and slams into the next bump. At 00.01.11, both skis are off the snow and he?s out of balance. He?s got a wedge going and he?s getting by on athletic, not, on skills. At 00.01.12, he?s back, leaning way over the inside ski. His inside skis is way ahead of him, really big tip lead, a modern skiing no-no. Then he pops up again, using an air turn to cover up his mistakes. Then he smiles at the camera as if to say, ?I?m so cool?. This guy should be concentrating on his skiing, not smiling at the camera. At 00.01.14 he?s totally sideways to the mountain, his tails are in danger of falling in front of his hips. Then, it?s another airplane turn, but he lands on top of the bump, the flat spot ? ouch! Airplane turns are fine, so long as you land on the downhill side of the bump. If you land on top of the bump like he does, that hurts the back. I don?t want to ski like this, as the way Bud is skiing is a recipe for lower back pain.

Next, at 00.01.18, we see Chris Geib. I have been far too complimentary of Chris. Also, he?s either not paying attention to what he?s being taught or, he?s just simply getting bad advice. I think it?s both. His bump skiing is terrible. Chris doesn?t get any leg bend in the bumps. Also, he needs to pick his head up. He makes one turn, and his skis are already off the ground. He doesn?t use any edge control, his default move is to swing his tails around. At 00.01.20, his skis are off the ground again and he?s swinging his tails around to make the turn. At 00.01.21 he really starts to get into trouble, he?s looking down, not up. At 00.01.22 he?s way behind and at this point he should just bail out and start over. He?s made 3 turns and already, he?s done. At 00.01.24, he?s a hack, he shouldn?t be in the bumps. Only God and his athletic ability saves him at this point. At 00.01.25 he slams into the bump ? my back hurts watching it. He?s way in the back seat but manages to pull it out by 00.01.28, although he ends up with an A-frame and a push off. At 00.01.31 he?s done again. Chris doesn?t show anything worthwhile to me in the bumps. He?s stiff, he?s skis pop up on every turn. He needs to learn how to flex his legs and use his edges, all of which is taught in PMTS. Chris was cynical the last time I saw him, he needs to be a lot more humble or he?s going rip his ACL. Chris has also been critical of PMTS. What he doesn?t realize is that whatever he?s following is getting him nowhere. Chris has the capability and the desire to ski well, I know he can. But like some others on epic, he?s been brainwashed into believing the PMTS isn?t for him. PMTS, is exactly what Chris needs.

At 00.01.32 we see another skier, I think it?s Shantzy. This skier doesn?t use his edges at all in the bump run. He?s skiing a blue bump run on a clear day. The snow soft and the bumps are round. I would expect to see much more edge control, I see none. While he?s got a nice flow to start with, at 00.01.38 he gets tossed back. He recovers at 00.01.39, but notice how he?s in a wedge, how his inside ski tip is crossed over this downhill ski tip. The only reason why he doesn?t fall at this point is because his inside ski is on the edge of a the bump, so it?s higher than the downhill ski. He recovers nicely and at 00.01.40, we finally see him using his edges on the downhill side of the bump. But then, because he?s off with his flexing, he gets blown way back and just about falls. He looks like an amateur at this point, not, a seasoned bump skier. This skier could benefit from PMTS. He needs to learn to use his edges and how to flex consistently in the bumps.

At 00.01.42 we see a skier who?s skiing off on the side, the easy part of a bump run. It?s hard to make detailed comments about this skier as the video doesn?t show his movements accurately. He starts his line with heavy pivoting and he doesn?t seem to use his edges at all. It looks like his default move in the bumps is pivoting and edge sets. PMTS teaches neither, it teaches a skier to use their edges and to use flexion ? absorb the bump.

At 00.01.49 it?s Jerry Berg. Jerry just never seems to make a mistake and is always in balance. His bump skiing in this sequence is great to watch. Jerry?s skis only come off the ground once, just slightly. It doesn?t look like a mistake. Notice how at 00.01.52 his rides over two bumps, then carves down a bump. This is text book PMTS skiing. At 00.01.54 he skids a little to slow down, which is something Harald does, too. But this skid move is not a default movement, it?s not with Harald, either. Jerry then finishes with a beautiful jump turn, landing on the downhill. His skiing is right on.

At 00.01.57 it?s Chris Geib again. Chris makes two turns then he?s back. Chris really suffers from holding his head down. He needs to pick his head up, start looking farther down the hill, not at his skis. He makes a few more turns using the up move, then he dumps. Chris skis too tight, it looks like he skis like a ski instructor. Chris spends enough time on the hill to ski well, in fact I think he could rip. But Chris wouldn?t follow PMTS if his life depended on it, he?s only hurting himself. If he keeps on skiing the way he does, that?s exactly what?s going to happen. He?s a bull in a china closet. He shows no humility, doesn?t respect the fact that he could have broken his neck in the fall.

At 00.02.11 it?s Bud H. again, skiing tourist bumps under the High Alpine chair. Bud is skiing the zipper line, his intent. He?s using a zipper line technique -- no edging, all pivoting. I?ll assume that?s what his intent is and leave it at that. PMTS does not teach this style of skiing.

At 00.02.19 to 00.02.36 it?s Jerry Berg again. Jerry is carving, using much of what PMTS teaches. Notice how Jerry pulls his inside leg up how his legs bend. Harald?s carving is better than this, but finishing second to Harald is nothing to be ashamed of. It?s great carving, the best in the video.

At 00.02.38 it?s Steve Hulquist, a highly vocal detractor of PMTS. Steve is skiing the last pitch of the bumps under the High Alpine chair. Those bumps get big and choppy, they?re black bumps, but the pitch is not steep at all. It looks like on that day the bumps were rounder than usual and soft. So, for these kind of bumps I?d be looking for edging. At 00.02.40, Steve skids into the side of round bump, it causes his skis to come off the ground. At 00.02.41, we see his bases, which is good. We miss 2 seconds of his turns, but at 00.02.43, he?s way off. He?s way too far over his skis, his hands are backwards. He has his inside, uphill hand down, it should up and leading. He?s leading with outside hand, which causes his hips to come around. At 00.02.45, he makes his best turn in the sequence. He?s sucking up the bump, his skis are parallel. At 00.02.47, he?s in a wedge, so something must have happened between 45 and 47 to throw him off. He finishes the turn with a skid and slam technique, which doesn?t seem to be his default move, but it also doesn?t seem to be his primary move, either. At 00.02.49 he?s skidding into the next bump. At 00.02.50 though, he looks great. His skis are on edge, he?s balanced over his skis. But then at 00.02.51, he gets big tip lead, he?s out of balance. He reacts by moving his body over his skis -- instead, he should have pulled his foot back. At 00.02.52, he sucks up the bump nice, but then doesn?t extend down the bump. So, the next bump he has to use pivoting and skidding. 00.02.54 and 00.02.55 he makes two good turns, flexing and extending. He makes his only two linked turn at the end, where the bumps are farther apart and rounder. Steve needs to slow down in the bumps, work on pulling his feet back and getting edging. Steve has said over and over that PMTS doesn?t lead to high level skiing. Well, for someone who?s skied as much as he has, whatever he?s doing isn?t leading to high level skiing ? either. I?ve met Steve, skied with him. Steve is another person who won?t follow PMTS just because he?s so PSIA. Steve doesn?t ski the turns he claims are good skiing. If Steve worked on pulling his feet back and using his edges, both PMTS standards, he?d get to high level skiing.

At 00.03.00 it?s Bud H. again. Bud starts of by pivoting, but then makes a series of nice turns, once he gets around the trees, up until 00.03.10 when he gets back and nearly crosses his tips. He finishes with his patented jump turn, landing once again on the flat spot. Skiing this way, Bud must keep chiropractors in his area in the money.

At 00.03.13 it?s Jerry again. More great skiing, where he?s always in control.

At 00.03.27 we see a skier, who aside from Jerry, is the best bump skier in the video. His skis are always on the ground, he skis slow in the bumps, which shows he?s keeping his feet under his hips and using his edges. His flexing is right on, his skis stay parallel. Really nice. He?s getting nice round turns. I think this skier could stand up more though, as he?d get even more flexion and control of the terrain. I believe this is what Harald would tell this skier, as well. This skier is skiing much of what PMTS teaches, which is to keep your feet pulled back and to use edge control.

At 00.03.35 it?s Weems Westfeld, another vocal opponent of PMTS. Weems has professed that PMTS doesn?t lead to high level skiing, is limiting, and that a skier needs to be learn it all, the ?tool box? idea, which is the mainstay of epicski.com This tool box idea means that a skier should study from all sources. But, it?s interesting to note that even though Weems says a skier should study from all source, he?s also said that PMTS is limiting, effectively contradicting himself. Apparently Weems evaluated PMTS for Aspen ski schools, where he?s some kind of big wig. Weems has also been a PSIA examiner, I believe. It?s relevant to note that two PMTS black level skiers, John Clendenin and Scotty Brooksbank, are highly sought after ski instructors at Aspen Ski School. If Weems?s claims are true, or valid in any way, then it makes no sense that two of Aspen Ski School?s most popular instructors are PMTS black. Weems?s skiing just isn?t very good. At 00.03.36 he skids the end of his turn, on a green run. His tails are nearly below his hips. He then uses an up move with a stem entry to start the new turn. He skids around the turn to 00.03.37, then uses an up move again at 00.03.38. At 00.03.39 he finishes the turn in a wedged position and pushes off to start the new turn. At 00.03.40 he?s A-framed and skids the turn. This is just poor skiing. Weems, skiing this way, isn?t as good as some beginning PMTS skiers I?ve seen. Weems is skiing a green run, yet can?t link a turn. He uses all the wrong moves and is not a model for either modern, or efficient skiing. He?s not using anything that PMTS teaches and would certainly benefit from incorporating PMTS from the ground up. It?s shocking, that someone of this stature, skis so poorly. My only guess is that he was demonstrating poor skiing for the camera.

At 00.03.42 it?s Joan Rostad. Joan still skis the old way ? primarily. She doesn?t really finish turns and uses edge sets to start the new turn. Her hands are lazy. She?s consistent, though. Consistently not PMTS. I personally have an affection for her skiing, I think she rips. Joan looks bored on blue runs, it shows. I?d have to see her in more challenging terrain, where she?s not bored, to make any real observations. I think she?s sexy, though. There?s just something about that woman?s turns that makes me go, ?Ooh. She looks fun?. FYI, I refer to her online as ?Your Highness?.

At 00.03.50, I think it?s Mike Rogan. Mike uses up moves and leans over his inside ski, not, his stance ski. He doesn?t ski with much counter acting movements, but then again, he?s not stemming his turns, either. 00.03.52 clearly shows an up move, his default movement. His arc doesn?t progress, he?s park and riding. He gets tip lead, he?s letting his inside ski creep forward. He makes the exact same turn each time, so maybe he was demonstrating non-dynamic skiing? Assuming he wasn?t, Mike could really benefit from PMTS. PMTS would teach him to continually tip his free foot ? inside ski ? as he moves through the turn. It would eliminate his tip lead. He?d learn counter acting movements, which would lead to getting his skis to much bigger angles. This might be green level PMTS carving, but it?s certainly not blue level PMTS carving.

Watching this video, it should be clear, the following:
1) That PMTS does not limit a skier in any way and that PMTS is the highest level of ski training available to a skier today; from a never ever to WC racer.
2) That if these skiers in the video would practice PMTS their skiing would drastically improve.
3) That the notion of a skier needing to learn it all is bunk, because if a skier learns PMTS, they?ll already know it all.
4) That ?good skiing? is not what some of these skiers are skiing. That some of these skiers default moves, are the exact same moves those in the epickski.com instructor forum have said isn?t modern skiing, or, what a skier should aspire to.
5) That those in the instructor forum have consistently contradicted themselves and that they don?t really understand PMTS. Therefore, they don?t understand high level skiing.

What?s great about time is that it never lies. All these years later PMTS is proving itself and proving it?s harshest critics to be wrong. Not just proving them to be a little wrong, it?s proving them to be way wrong.

Finally, I?m staring to learn what the definition of insanity is ? doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. So in the interests of my sanity, I?m not going to respond.



10-4



Can't seem to get my mind off of you
Back here at home there's nothin' to do
Now that I'm away
I wish I'd stayed
Tomorrow's a day of mine
That you won't be in

When you looked at me
I should've run
But I thought it was just for fun
I see I was wrong
And I'm not so strong
I should've known all along
That time would tell

A week without you
Thought I'd forget
Two weeks without you and I
Still haven't gotten over you yet

Vacation
All I ever wanted
Vacation
Had to get away
Vacation
Meant to be spent alone

Vacation
All I ever wanted
Vacation
Had to get away
Vacation
Meant to be spent alone

A week without you
Thought I'd forget
Two weeks without you and I
Still haven't gotten over you yet

Vacation
All I ever wanted
Vacation
Had to get away
Vacation
Meant to be spent alone

[40below]

grrrrreat post you clever partners in crime

kicking back
looking out the 12th floor in the Cities
1'-2' + of fresh pow for the midWest today
[2nd time in as many weeks]
ankle healed enough to dive into it again

organic coconut oil popcorn smothered with no-bovine-GH REAL BUTTER
and i'm just 'bout to p my GoreTex waiting for the
no-holds-barred
Ultimate Fighting Championships
to begin again

'cause he mayn't be physically present .....
but "the Shadow" knows

[h.harb]

Paul sensational piece, I looked at the video also, but briefly. I didn?t recognize the skiers (plus it was boring except for the music) and I didn?t read your piece, until after I looked at the video.

You MA is right on, excellent job, none of the PSIA guys could do MA as well as you just did.

Although I do respect Bergie?s skiing and at times I have also considered him to be the best in PSIA, he did show a few things in the video that could be improved with PMTS, but for a PSIA skier, it?s exceptional.

I have always said BB is a big mouth, who can?t come close to living up to his self billing as a skier or ski analyst . He has no credentials except PSIA, what does that tell you? This confirms it. Bob would like to be seen as a skier, but he is not even close to Bergie?s league. Bob has never been close to skiing as well as a PSIA Demo Teamer, let alone a PMTS pro trainer.

Rogan is definitely a leaner and up extension skier. He would benefit from a PMTS release and instruction. He doesn?t use appropriate movement for the situation.

Why and How can PSIA keep saying that their technique produces skiing for all needs, when it doesn?t, they are lying to everyone, but worst they have convinced themselves they are seeing what isn?t happening.

Many of their best don?t show the versatility of skills, they keep talking about. They profess to possess all the things they?d like to see, but can?t perform them, because the system doesn?t produce them. The rest can?t even keep the skis in control. They are out of balance in almost every turn.

Weems has always been a joke, even in PSIA, they know he can?t ski. He does their absurd demos so he doesn?t have to show his skiing. If anyone could use a system to help become an advanced skier, it would be Weems. Sorry Weems, you're not doing it and PMTS is the only way you could. Remember if you are comfortable with that level of performance and they are, you know where to get it.

Well done Paul, but I?m sure we won?t hear the last of this, the Epic crowd is going to be crawling all over this forum, now.

One last comment, these guys are skiing with their feet way to close together, especially their best skier, Bergie. How can you watch this video and with the benefit of Paul?s honest, accurate, comments come up with anything but, these words to describe that outfit, disingenuous and inept .

[dewdman42]

SCSA,

Some of the names you guessed are not correct. Go check the Epic thread again (there is a list) to see the correct names for the correct sequences....to be fair.

I also want to point out that though your MA may in fact be correct for the various sequences, I know from my own experience that its very difficult to happen to get the right video at the right time. Almost nobody skis perfectly every turn and even less so when we know the camara is on us. At that ESA event someone was capturing spontaneous video footage here and there, its not like they were out staging things and shooting it over and over until they got it right. So before we start tearing apart some skiers who are quite obviously very decent skiers in their own right..I just want to point that out.

I agree Jerry Berg was the most impressive skier in this footage and I was very surprised to find out he is 60 years old! Wow. I hope I can ski like that in 20 years from now. I do find some faults with his skiing, its not perfect. The long shot of him doing carves on the groomer are a good place to do MA(04:19:04).

He could benefit from more counter balance and counter-action, a typical disease shared by many in PSIA. You can see him at 4:22:11 pull his left arm around to compensate for inefficient carving. In fact he does it on every turn from that side. In general he is riding too much on his inside ski for this type of skiing. More counter balancing(ie, angulation in case he is reading this), will help. He is a very dynamic skier and what is good is that he has eliminated the old school pop extension from his skiing, something which must have been even more difficult for someone with his history. He's not afraid of getting angles and I generally like his transitions, he's getting inside. But he could just fine tune a bit, get a bit more counter-balancing and counter-action and lock in better carves on his outside ski. Harald will probably spot more, but in general I agree with you, his skiing is the best in the video.

All of these skiers showed bits and pieces of being good skiers that need to improve, just like the rest of us. Some more than others. I have no problem with that. When I watch my own videos I'm less than impressed also. Its very easy to find fault. I think its easy to find fault with some of these guys because they are so vocal online and so we are holding them to a higher standard. But perhaps we should go a little easier.

That being said, I do think its a shame when anyone shuts out stuff that they can learn from anywhere. PMTS would in fact help every single skier in that video if they really gave it an opportunity. Many of them I know have purchased the PMTS books and videos, but their heart is not in it, so they are not really learning what they could learn if they put their heart into it.

Some of the skiers have what I like to call "solid mediocrity" in their skiing. They are smooth and solid, balanced...but not skiing as high performance as if they gave PMTS a shot to see where it would take them. Nolo and Megan are prime examples of this. They've been doing it a long time, they look smooth and more or less in balance. They can go anywhere. A typical recreational skier would watch them and think "wow, I wish I could ski like that". But to me it looks B-O-R-I-N-G! They are truly missing out on many dynamic sensations. This would not be even worth mentioning were it not for the fact that one of them is a demo team member and the other one is a seriously vocal opponent against PMTS. They could both benefit greatly.

But perhaps they don't care to ski any better than that. In which case, I say, live and let live. Thus my term "solid mediocrity". To be mediocre is to accept it and decide not to pursue excellence. I don't particularly think their skiing sucks. Its just not has hot-rodded as it could be if they opened their mind to something else besides TTS. That is not easy to do though and especially if you are teacher or someone in a position where lots of recreational skiers are applauding you for how pretty you look to them. Change is almost impossible in that situation without them recognizing what they are missing and desiring to reach for it.

I really don't want to bother with specific detailed move-by-move MA because like I said, video footage in this situation can mis-represent overall skiing. But I will say, I was less than impressed with most of the usual loud mouths such as Barnes, Weems(he skis like he's 80 years old). Guys like Cgeib and SSH ski about like I thought they would based on what I've heard them say online and in SSH's case, based on other footage I've seen. The one surprise to me was Bud, who skis better than I thought he would from his Epic comments. He's most definitely trapped in old school technique, but he does it pretty well I think, for what it is(old school). I doubt he has any desire to ever change his ways and I have no problem with that, so all I can say is good on ya Bud for getting as good at old school as you have. Have fun.

[Hobbit]

I posted this on epic per SCSA request but the post did not last long.
I guess it hurts really bad.

[dewdman42]

They deleted the post!?? Really. I thought they didn't do that on Epic. Sounds a bit hypocritical.

[Flexon Phil]

Good skiing is not?PMTS.
By SCSA

To begin, the biggest complaint against PMTS by those in the PSIA and epicski.com instructor forum is that PMTS is limiting and that it doesn?t lead to high level skiing. Another complaint by those in the instructor form against PMTS is that ?good skiing is good skiing?, meaning at the highest levels of skiing there?s no difference between PMTS and whatever else ? so why bother with PMTS. These same netizens also say that a skier needs a ?tool box full of tools?, meaning that a skier should ?learn it all?. This is just another way for them to say why bother with PMTS. Of course this last comment has always thrown me sideways, because one hand they say that a skier needs to learn it all, but on the other hand they steer (pun) skiers away from PMTS.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=52831

I am one of the netizens who say "good skiing is good skiing" and I also think it is great to have a tool box full of tools and PMTS IS one of those tools and IMHO, not to be EXCLUDED. I have yet to say..why bother with PMTS and no where have I said to avoid it.

Personally I look to accept different beliefs, IMHO post like this do more to discredit and alienate than they do to work together. It is a shame.

To pit PMTS against PSIA is creating a religious war and we know how they always turn out. I see an inferiority complex coming from SOME PMTS fanatics and quite frankly it is tiresome and discredits the system. I have seen Amway repesentiatives do a better job promiting a product than the tactics that are used here.

[BigE]

I was having trouble finding it, after I posted to it.

No rebuttals were posted. It's a shame. I was hoping to see the gushing over the "skill blend" that produced that skiing. I was going to go through the analysis of the video, but after watching it, I thought: why bother?. I'm sure they already know what I think.

It's removal is the most sincere form of agreement with content that I could imagine, regardless that it came from a "banned" member. SCSA should be flattered.

[dewdman42]

Personally I look to accept different beliefs, IMHO post like this do more to discredit and alienate than they do to work together. It is a shame.

I hear you Phil and I tend to agree. There are perhaps some pointed comments towards particular individuals who are particularly antagonistic towards anything PMTS...can you really blame us for that? They have sorta asked for it.

I am one of the netizens who say "good skiing is good skiing" and I also think it is great to have a tool box full of tools and PMTS IS one of those tools and IMHO, not to be EXCLUDED. I have yet to say..why bother with PMTS and no where have I said to avoid it.

And good on ya for that. Please consider this. You can say good skiing is good skiing, but what is "good skiing" anyway? If it was what Weems or Bob Barnes define and like how they ski in this video, then I don't particularly think it is good skiing. You say you want a toolbox full of skills, but in PSIA, many of the so-called "skills", we consider to be "flaws"!!!! Not skills. You can practice a flaw over and over until it seems like a skill to you, but its not a helpful skill at all if it lowers your level of skiing performance. Its a flaw.

Its very easy to say everything is a skill. How nice is that. I can ski around with my hands straight up in the air and my head looking down at my toes...... and call that my special skill, but no matter how many ways I spin it or paint it as a skill with logic and reasoning, its going to lower my skiing performance. It would not be a skill. It would be a flaw. A drastic example, I know, but you get the point. To some people it is not so obvious why some of the so called PSIA skills are actually flaws. That is unfortunate since they will remain trapped in that state of illusion until they finally open their minds or one day the light bulb goes on and they understand why its a flaw and not a skill.

The reason we point out these flaws is not, contrary to popular Epic opinion, to market PMTS or to create a fight. We point out these flaws because we REALLY DO THINK they are flaws and we are trying to raise skier awareness.

[Flexon Phil]

This thread was not deleted because the content or opinion. But it was deleted because it was a post from a banned member by proxy of another member.

[dewdman42]

you mean kinda like the times people have posted other quotes from other people as it suited their purposes? Please, that is a cheap and easy excuse. They deleted it because they were embarrassed by the content. Very hypocritical. Epic moderators have stated over and over that they do not wish to censor as long as people don't turn it into personal attacks.

[Bob]

Outstanding.

Thanks, SCSA

Hope you're doing well!

[Flexon Phil]

[quote="dewdman42]I hear you Phil and I tend to agree. There are perhaps some pointed comments towards particular individuals who are particularly antagonistic towards anything PMTS...can you really blame us for that? They have sorta asked for it.

[/quote]

I am one of the netizens who say "good skiing is good skiing" and I also think it is great to have a tool box full of tools and PMTS IS one of those tools and IMHO, not to be EXCLUDED. I have yet to say..why bother with PMTS and no where have I said to avoid it.

And good on ya for that. Please consider this. You can say good skiing is good skiing, but what is "good skiing" anyway? If it was what Weems or Bob Barnes define and like how they ski in this video, then I don't particularly think it is good skiing. You say you want a toolbox full of skills, but in PSIA, many of the so-called "skills", we consider to be "flaws"!!!! Not skills. You can practice a flaw over and over until it seems like a skill to you, but its not a helpful skill at all if it lowers your level of skiing performance. Its a flaw.

Its very easy to say everything is a skill. How nice is that. I can ski around with my hands straight up in the air and my head looking down at my toes...... and call that my special skill, but no matter how many ways I spin it or paint it as a skill with logic and reasoning, its going to lower my skiing performance. It would not be a skill. It would be a flaw. A drastic example, I know, but you get the point. To some people it is not so obvious why some of the so called PSIA skills are actually flaws. That is unfortunate since they will remain trapped in that state of illusion until they finally open their minds or one day the light bulb goes on and they understand why its a flaw and not a skill.

The reason we point out these flaws is not, contrary to popular Epic opinion, to market PMTS or to create a fight. We point out these flaws because we REALLY DO THINK they are flaws and we are trying to raise skier awareness.

Why are you taking things to the Nth degree? Take Harald, Rogan, Scot Schmidt, Herman Maier, Jeremy Nobis and Nelson Carmichal. All have completely different STYLES, who's to say one style is right or wrong, good or bad? Personally, I don't have that type of arrogance.

If you are trying to create awareness, you need to build your product up and not knock another one down. I suggest you read any sales 101 books.

[dewdman42]

Flaws are most definitely not to be ignored. You are assuming that I want to sell something. I don't want to sell anything. I speak the truth as I see it for anyone to benefit from, that will listen.

[dewdman42]

Also, I don't think you've seen anyone around here complaining about Scott Schmidt or Hermann for that matter, so I'm not at all clear about how you are associating them with TTS. Scott Schmidt, as it turns out, was my all time ski hero in the 90's. He lives in Santa Cruz now and surfs. Much of my skiing came from watching his film work 10-15 years ago. As far as I know he has never had anything to do with PSIA, and neither has Hermann for that matter.