Bindings- Does PMTS affect the settings??

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Bindings- Does PMTS affect the settings??

Postby Bluey » Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:43 am

This may sound like an uniformed question but..... should I be adjusting my binding setting if i'm using PMTS?

My thinking ( probably flawed) ) is that when I was not using PMTS, I was applying plenty of twist to my skis ( stance foot).....so the manufacturer's binding setting calculator/chart may based on a non PMTS approach and as such my binding may now not release as quickly as they should.......


Any thoughts?


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Postby tommy » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:33 am

Hi Bluey,

interesting question.

Without being able to directly answer your question on whether the binding settings can be set to a lower level when skiing PMTS, I can definitely say that for me, the stress levels on my knees have been vastly reduced since I started skiing using PMTS. Ever since being a teenager, I've had trouble with my knees (Schlatter - see
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=145&topcategory=Knee )

Before starting to use PMTS for my skiing, after a few days on the slopes, my knees were aching a lot. Sometimes so bad that I had to put an ice bag on the knees over lunch in order to keep skiing.

Now when using PMTS, I rarely notice any problems with my knees, despite that I'm skiing much mcuh "harder" now than I used to - until last season, my skiing was mostly a "socializing event" with my kids, while now I'm really getting a good workout each skiing day.

I doubt the "general condition" of my knees has changed much over the past years, so my guess for the reason for not having pain anymore is that PMTS is much friendlier to the knees than my old homegrown technique (outside ski steering etc)

The only time recently when I've noticed knee problems was when a father with a small kid having huge problems on a black run approached me, asking me to literally carry his son down the slope: to do that, I wedged down the slope, carrying the kid. Immediately after this run, I had a lot of pain in my knees for a few days.

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby Bluey » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:41 am

Tommy,

I can empthasis with you about tiredness in the legs and concern about knees. I was in a similar situation before PMTS came over my horizon.

Last season, I would ski all day and had a blast.... no knee or leg conerns....amazing......I'm just happy to get those benefits for whatever reason...


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Re: Bindings- Does PMTS affect the settings??

Postby BigE » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:18 pm

Bluey wrote:This may sound like an uniformed question but..... should I be adjusting my binding setting if i'm using PMTS?


No.
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no or yes or it depends

Postby John Mason » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:18 pm

I asked this same question this weekend and was told that for many people the settings can be less, but if your skiing bumps than probaly not.

But for carving on groomers, for many people you can back it off.

That's what I was told by a person that considers themselves a PMTS expert.
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Postby HH » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:38 pm

Yes John, you can set bindings lower while using PMTS on groomed, not in the bumps.

There is a research published by a Stanford researcher that unequivocally states, that a wide stance and steering on skis is damaging to knees. I?ll post the link in the next few days.
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That would be a great article to post

Postby John Mason » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:39 pm

That would be a great article to post and I'm glad I quoted that PMTS expert correctly. :lol: I thought I remembered that correctly.
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Postby BigE » Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:05 am

Backing off the DIN on groomers has absolutely nothing to do with PMTS. If you are suggesting that the DIN is the only thing holding you in when skis are pivotted, you'd be very wrong. The lack of lateral forces is why you don't fly out on the groomers, while the bumps will push the skis sideways. If all you ski is manicured, the DINs can be very low.

Two stories:

When I was a beginner, on my first day, my DINS were set very low. I was a very athletic kid at 17 yrs old 225 lbs, and took to the sport very quickly. I hockey stopped at the end of the bunny hill on my first run, on which I was taught the stem turn, and stem christie and went straight up to the top of Mont ste anne. I was cruising very fast on blues with straight short skis by mid-morning (165's), doing stem turns when going slow, and more parallel once I could go faster.

That day, I found myself on a blue that had a steep bump section by mistake. The skis would fly off on every turn -- I had to walk around the bump field. No PMTS back then, just low DINs on a bump field -- the skis never fell off on the groomed.

Last month, I skied down a GS course having forgotten to raise the DIN settings after I lowered them for storage. I backed them off entirely. The settings were so far below scale, set screws were loose. I noticed my error in a lift line at the end of the day when I found the toepiece was literally loose and floppy. One run without falling could be considered lucky.

I did 5 runs late afternoon, as fast and as aggressively as possible. I now weigh 240 and believe me, attacking a GS course is aggressive skiing. The inside ski even chattered on one run -- mistake yes, but the skis remained on all day.

Please don't try to attribute everything to PMTS -- that would be at best overzealous, at worst blind.

Cheers!
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Postby Carv_lust » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:49 pm

Hey BigE, Why not, even my sore back is gone since I use PMTS.

My blood pressure is lower and so is my appetite, I lost weight and I feel better about myself, all since I've been using PMTS. I look better, all my friends tell me my style is better, I look like a professional.

Where have you been? I stopped twisting and over rotating since I use PMTS and my quads stopped hurting. I think I'll drop my DIN settings a full number.

It might raise my IQ , because I know since I stopped using PSIA, I'm also smarter and have better memory.

My knees are feeling much better since I stopped using rotary movements, and started tipping with the phantom move. I can't tell you how thankful I am for PMTS. I can ski longer, without pain. I can't wait for the next book, maybe I'll win the lottery.

PMTS puts less torgue on the bindings on smooth surfaces and during carving turns. This is hard to prove because PSIA doesn't teach carving turns. Leg steering and torquing the knees not only hurts but does require a higher settings.

The way to test this is to lower the DIN setting on an intermediate skier who learned the Wedge Christie (don't tell him) and do the same to a Blue level PMTS skier. Have them take twenty runs while raising the difficulty level of the slope. Whoever comes out of the binding first is the loser.
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Postby hh » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:56 pm

Nice post, I used to need a binding setting of 10 when I was on the demo team, now I can set them at 9 and I never pre-release. I ski some days on our demo skis with settings as low as 6. I have yet to release. Do you think it's the Tyrolia binding? I used to ski Marker.

We could test beginners with PMTS movements with settings on 1. And have a Wedge Christie skier do the same. Any volunteers?
hh
 

Postby Bluey » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:25 pm

Thanks for the input so far..........my only additional thought to this thread is that since apply PMTS techniques to my skiing, my sking style has become more aggressive and as such this more aggressive style has made me rethink my binding setting.


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What din are you at?

Postby John Mason » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:16 am

What din setting are you at? Maybe we should just poll and see what people are using that doesn't pop their skis.

I use 7. My skis have not popped out when they should not so far. I weigh 208 and am 6 ft.

They have popped off lots of time when they should have and have never left me feeling "wrenched" when they did.
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Postby Bluey » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:19 am

John,

I'll start it off .....
I'm 5'10, 184lbs & just over 50.
The DIN setting on my new Tyrolia's are 5 ( which is about mid range for the settings on these bindings).
( BTW, these are just new bindings and this setting of 5 is what the DIN was set at by the ski shop when I got my skis at the end of last year........ so I can't comment on whether they'll release correctly & or as appropriate this season coming. In previous seasons, for various reasons, I had used hired stuff. I got a DIN chart off the internet and a 5 is about right for me accrding to the chart but I think so could a 6 however I'd rather err on the lower side rather than risk a knee injury).

As background, one of the reasons I have an interest in trying to understand DIN setttings is because of an experience I had last year.
Last year, I had been using hired ski equipment for a whole week....then I returned the skis to the ski shop for a wax and they said my DIN settings were wrong .......they asked if I had come out a lot....I looked at them amazed ......I said no ......he then proceeded to reset the DINS and I left feeling annoyed that I didn't know which of the two "experts" in that ski shop had it right.......both had given me the feeling they knew what they we're doing.......I left feeling confused......and determined to understand DIN settings.


Bluey.
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My understanding is that the chart the shops use

Postby John Mason » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:45 am

My understanding is that the chart the shops use top out at 9 for an "advanced" skier.

My son had a pop out at 9 last May at Mammoth and it really messed his knee up. Could have just been a fluke. But had he had a setting of 5 like you run on, I bet that trip to the hospital and weeks of work to get it back to normal would not have happened.

I was told my 7 setting was intermediate. As I've gotten better I've just left it at 7.

Isn't there also, in addition to a safety issue, an issue with the binding holding the ski more firmly to the boot allowing for better edge control as the din numbers go up? Otherwise I would think the best setting would be the lowest that just keeps the skis on. But if higher allows more accurate edge control, then some middle ground would be better.

So, to the accumulated mind of experience here - are high Din numbers better for edge control?
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Postby Guest » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:07 pm

Gentlemen please,

Spewing forth DIN numbers and your own weight proves nothing at all.

Look, I managed a GS course near zero. Why? Lack of lateral force. Would I get away with it in the bumps? Not a chance. Why not? If I slide up against a bump the lateral force would knock off the ski.

I'm certain I can wedge christie at a setting of one. How do I know I can do it? I helped slip the GS course before going down the day my bindings were loose. FYI, that's wedging down the run.

Look, PMTS is a teaching methodology. DIN settings are about physics.

Physics does not care how you learned to ski. If you exceed lateral forces you will fall out of the bindings. They should save rec skiers from injury in case they make errors that result in torquing the knees. IMO, there is a huge misunderstanding of DIN.
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