Video for PMTS motion analysis.....

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Video for PMTS motion analysis.....

Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:49 pm

Hi! A few friends of mine told me to come check out this forum for some technique advice. They said PMTS would really improve my skiing. Please have a look at this clip and let me know if there's any PMTS techniques I could use to improve how I skied this line. Keep in mind that I'm skiing in thin cover conditions, with about 1-2 feet of wind collected snow that had not been skied (untracked), and had been sitting in the sun melting for a few days - so it was pretty sticky and heavy. What do you think? Thanks!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsV2EFvDkM
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Postby jbotti » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:31 pm

Highway Satr, the video you have selected has you in a series of recovery moves while you are skiing, and espcially toward the end you are almost entirely in the back seat (combined with some stemming and steering). My guess is that this has alot to do with the terrain and the conditions.

Assuming that in a more controlled environment (groomed terrain) your skiing exhibits better charcteristics, if you have a video of you carving on groomed terrain you might find that you would get MA that would serve you better and have a more lasting impact. As well with regard to this point, Harald and other followers of PMTS are in agreement that solid carving skills translate into better all terrain skiing.

This is my suggestion, if you have other video available. Personally I find it difficlut to give you feedback on video that perhaps represents the low end of your ability.
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Postby NoCleverName » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:59 pm

I can't give any PMTS advice ... but in general you seemed at the mercy of the mountain during this run. There was a lot of violent pole activity. If you can think back on it, maybe tactically you weren't looking far enough ahead to "slow things down" so that you could smoothly flow. Perhaps because it was a recorded run you just rushed it.

I also think you "left the snow" too often and thus lost a lot of opportunity to control speed. The PMTS seems to believe a lot in the "high C", particularly in difficult conditions, and in my limited experience, they are right. Maintaining a smoothly turning ski in contact with the snow as much as possible solves a lot of problems. Going airborne unnecessarily means the skis come down who knows where and typically going in different directions.

So I think you weren't mentally ready for the run and you used up a lot of energy at the top with those jump turns and flailing arms. When the opportunity came to throw in two or three "speed control" turns in the middle of the run you were just too tired to do it and thus speed really picked up.

So I think JB is right, you haven't displayed your best skills in this run because of tactical mistakes ... itself a worthy area of study.
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Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:06 pm

jbotti wrote:Highway Satr, the video you have selected has you in a series of recovery moves while you are skiing, and espcially toward the end you are almost entirely in the back seat (combined with some stemming and steering). My guess is that this has alot to do with the terrain and the conditions.

Assuming that in a more controlled environment (groomed terrain) your skiing exhibits better charcteristics, if you have a video of you carving on groomed terrain you might find that you would get MA that would serve you better and have a more lasting impact. As well with regard to this point, Harald and other followers of PMTS are in agreement that solid carving skills translate into better all terrain skiing.

This is my suggestion, if you have other video available. Personally I find it difficlut to give you feedback on video that perhaps represents the low end of your ability.


Hey, thanks!!!!

I can probably carve about as well as anybody here on groomed snow, so I'm not particularly concerned about that....piece of cake really. I do a variety of carving styles pretty well......I'm sure are some could be considered similar to PMS.

I'm more concerned about staying on my feet in variable snow and rough terrain at higher speeds.....so I posted a clip of skiing agressively in difficult conditions.
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Postby jbotti » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:38 pm

Highway Star, from your video, when you have both skis on the snow, your skiing shows almost no counteracting movements, and you are agressively leaning in on virtually all of your turns. I would guess that this occurs when you carve as well. This is a major limiting factor in all skiing.

It could be that it was just the terrain, but generally when I see vidoe of people with excellent carving skills in difficult terrain, the basics (counter balance, counter rotation, lateral balance centered and no agreesive leaning in) are still in place even when they are struggling with the terrain.

Carving well and correctly is anything but a piece of cake and this is why racers practice it incessantly every day from when they are 4 until they retire. JB.
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Postby dewdman42 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:39 pm

Highway, I'm not sure why you came here with this after your Epic debacle a few months ago. I told you this on Epic, I will tell you again. If you want to improve, get back to the groomers and focus on fundamental technique. PMTS can indeed help you a lot, but you need to get back to basics and forget about this so called "extreme" skiing. Go ski that for fun whenever you want. If you want to learn how to ski that and everything else with true smooth style you need to get on groomers and focus on your carving. I know you think you can carve your skis on a groomer and actually its not that difficult to make your skiis ride on a rail. However, there are indeed many WRONG ways to do it...and those wrong ways are exactly the flaws which will surface as larger glaring problems when you are skiing in steeps, bumps, pow, ice and other more difficult situations.

Show us some groomer skiing, we can help you find those flaws to fix them.

Otherwise, I'm not sure why you posted your video. If its anything like Epic where you where you seemed to be begging for approval or applause, you probably won't find it here with skiing like that.
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Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:41 pm

NoCleverName wrote:I can't give any PMTS advice ... but in general you seemed at the mercy of the mountain during this run. There was a lot of violent pole activity. If you can think back on it, maybe tactically you weren't looking far enough ahead to "slow things down" so that you could smoothly flow. Perhaps because it was a recorded run you just rushed it.

I also think you "left the snow" too often and thus lost a lot of opportunity to control speed. The PMTS seems to believe a lot in the "high C", particularly in difficult conditions, and in my limited experience, they are right. Maintaining a smoothly turning ski in contact with the snow as much as possible solves a lot of problems. Going airborne unnecessarily means the skis come down who knows where and typically going in different directions.

So I think you weren't mentally ready for the run and you used up a lot of energy at the top with those jump turns and flailing arms. When the opportunity came to throw in two or three "speed control" turns in the middle of the run you were just too tired to do it and thus speed really picked up.

So I think JB is right, you haven't displayed your best skills in this run because of tactical mistakes ... itself a worthy area of study.


Cool.....but I would suggest looking at the video at least several more times (very closely), and then re-evaluate what you just said.

The quality of the video is poor and it's hard to judge what exactly I'm skiing on, and how fast. The defintition on the snow is washed out. The terrain is rugged and I'm intending to come charging through the deeper snow as I pass the camera. I do make a brilliant recovery move during the turn transition in question, to prevent from going over the bars in the manky snow. I am making jump turns because of the snow and terrain. Also note that I slam into a 2 foot high water bar after I pass the camera.

Yes, you could say I am back seat for several turns, in fact, I am entirely on the tails of the skis with the tips far out of the snow. But my upperbody is centered and forward. You could also say I understand how to bend a ski, since I am making the turn entirely off the bent tail of the ski - no skid.

I am also 100% in control through the run, and did not get the least bit tired - infact, those two "back seat" turns before I hit the waterbar took a good bit of power to execute.


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Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:42 pm

serious wrote:Great skiing HS. I doubt anyone (even Harald Harb) could handle that run like you did.

Admit it, this is all you want to hear. :lol:


I don't think anybody would ski that the way I did, but I'm sure many people could ski it better.
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Postby NoCleverName » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:46 pm

Easy, serious. HS is our guest.

I'm sure HS knows that was a terrible run and is just over here to see if the PMTS offers anything so that would never happen again. To the point, JB is right about looking at the groomed runs, because the PMTS advocates taking what you know in the groomed into the crud. So it is easier to fix problems that are not masked or distorted by lousy conditions. That's because the PMTS doesn't have technique that changes much due to conditions.
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Postby codyblank » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:46 pm

if you can carve that far in the backseat, you must be bode miller.
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Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:48 pm

dewdman42 wrote:Highway, I'm not sure why you came here with this after your Epic debacle a few months ago. I told you this on Epic, I will tell you again. If you want to improve, get back to the groomers and focus on fundamental technique. PMTS can indeed help you a lot, but you need to get back to basics and forget about this so called "extreme" skiing. Go ski that for fun whenever you want. If you want to learn how to ski that and everything else with true smooth style you need to get on groomers and focus on your carving. I know you think you can carve your skis on a groomer and actually its not that difficult to make your skiis ride on a rail. However, there are indeed many WRONG ways to do it...and those wrong ways are exactly the flaws which will surface as larger glaring problems when you are skiing in steeps, bumps, pow, ice and other more difficult situations.

Show us some groomer skiing, we can help you find those flaws to fix them.

Otherwise, I'm not sure why you posted your video. If its anything like Epic where you where you seemed to be begging for approval or applause, you probably won't find it here with skiing like that.


Nope, just looking for good advice.

Epicski is full of people with bad advice, with a few people who know what's up. Maybe you guys are different. Really. I could care less if you guys think I'm a good skier I not, based on one crappy video on the 'net.

Seriously though, I'd like to hear more about this counter balancing theory, etc. The reason I'm on my tails in the pics above, are to counter the seriously sticky snow I'm in.
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Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:53 pm

NoCleverName wrote:Easy, serious. HS is our guest.

I'm sure HS knows that was a terrible run.......


Actually, I'm proud of that run, and think it's quite excellent skiing.

It's fast, has flair, style, agressiveness, is in VERY difficult snow, and I dodge about 20 objects on the way down........

The video doesn't do it justice.
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Postby NoCleverName » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:01 pm

Highway star wrote:Cool.....but I would suggest looking at the video at least several more times (very closely), and then re-evaluate what you just said.


I did look at it many times (not slowly) and I did consider that I wasn't there and that I couldn't know what you faced. That said, I still don't change my opinion that your run was lost tactically from the outset because you always seemed to be behind the hill. I can believe in one or two recoveries being needed per run, but when it's one after the other, something's amiss.

I wouldn't be too proud about skiing on your tails ... that is a recipe for disaster ... no matter how "centered" you are. You can't turn on your tails and you are just one slip from major knee surgury.

There will come a time when shear power and athletic moves aren't going to be in your bag anymore. By that time I hope you have skills that preclude having to make such "spectacular" runs. That's one reason why I adhear to the PMTS because it is "low energy" and is generally a "safe" style in most conditions.
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Postby dewdman42 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:10 pm

Stop making excuses about the snow. You are all over the place in this video. So many errors. If you want to improve bring us your best. Hopping your way through a field of rocks is not your best. That is hack skiing. I agree its a difficult obstacle course. Here's a pat on your back. If you want to improve, get out of the rocks, show us your real ski technique. We can help.

Some things I saw at various times and totally inconsistently...

- Your jump turns. Ick.

- shoulder pulls, to pull some of your turns around.

- Riding in the back seat.

- banking your turns

- no counter-action or counter-balance

There are so many flaws its ridiculous to try to look at this skiing and give you any helpful advice because it represents a guy who is just hacking his way through a tricky obstacle course and basically throwing technique out the window. You obviously have good athleticism and good sense of balance, but if you want to be a great skier you need to get back to basics and learn how to ski.
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Postby Highway star » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:11 pm

jbotti wrote:Highway Star, from your video, when you have both skis on the snow, your skiing shows almost no counteracting movements, and you are agressively leaning in on virtually all of your turns. I would guess that this occurs when you carve as well. This is a major limiting factor in all skiing.

It could be that it was just the terrain, but generally when I see vidoe of people with excellent carving skills in difficult terrain, the basics (counter balance, counter rotation, lateral balance centered and no agreesive leaning in) are still in place even when they are struggling with the terrain.

Carving well and correctly is anything but a piece of cake and this is why racers practice it incessantly every day from when they are 4 until they retire. JB.


Thanks, this is a very useful post.

What do you mean by counter-acting movements - is that basicly keeping your body upright and centered, and using it against your legs? I think I do that most of the time, and can do it at will. But sometimes I like to lean into the turn in various amounts, depending on the situation.

Oh, and I didn't mean to say carving is "easy". It's certainly very hard. Btu I've been doing it for over 10 years, so I've learned and forgotten a bunch along the way. I know the importance of bending a ski and harnessing the energy out of the turn, but also when it's preferable to scrub speed while still making a clean, stylish turn. Or when to not bother carving at all, or when to carve dramaticly in an tight situation. Or how to bend a long radius ski into a tight, semicarved turn by bending agressively from tip to tail.

(FYI: I'm 28, 190lb, 6'1" and ski at stowe and killington mainly (38 days this year). My two main freeskiing skis are 186 head Im88's w/s916's, and 179 K2 Public Enemy's with Look Zr18's. I ski highly modified Raichle Flexons w/thermoflexes and race toungues (very stiff).)
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