Drills and Truth

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Drills and Truth

Postby idahorob » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:31 am

I know this has been said here before, but I just want to cast my vote for doing the drills. Two weeks ago I skied Mt. Bachelor with Max_501, who is one of the most precise skiers you'd ever hope to see. And we did five hours of drills. Five hours! With no lunch! He looked for any hint of rotational force in my turns and then took me into a drill to get over it. Did I get over it? Not exactly, but I came away with a year's worth of stuff to explore. What a day!

Yesterday I went to Bogus Basin (which I still say is the best kept ski secret in the West, kind of like the Boise State Broncos in football) and did my own drills out of the Essentials book for three hours. I stayed on one easy run, sometimes taking a half-hour to get down. Man, those drills will expose your flaws, which can be humbling. At speed I think I look pretty good. But the slow speed will expose all those little nasty secrets. But, truth is beauty, they say, and I made a lot of progress figuring out how to fix some of those flaws.

To get back to the chair, after my easy run, was the option of the steepest groomed pitch on the mountain - on this day flat and icy. As my drills progressed this gave great feedback in it's own way, because difficult runs will expose flaws differently -- they show you whether your blue run technique is any good, even if it doesn't give you the specifics. By the end of the morning I had much better grip and less chatter on the ice.

So, if anyone reading this is new to this approach, I totally recommend doing the drills and facing the truth about what you find. Practice doesn't make perfect -- only perfect practice makes perfect.
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Postby Harald » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:54 pm

Rob, thank you for your feedback about Essentials and PMTS skiing. You are at the beginning of a truly new and exciting development in your skiing. The path you are choosing with Max will bring you quickly to the upper levels of skiing movements.

I keep hearing how PSIA thinking and approaches are trying to keep up with PMTS, but I fail to see it, except on the surface, where they try to make those noises, as they are being beaten to the punch from the technical development and marketing side by PMTS. In reality they are the same old tired organization, no matter what PSIA would like to say and try to portray in their videos with the demo team, there is no vision or leadership.

That said, skiing like any other serious endeavor takes serious attention to detail. I add, Max501 is a great student of the sport, he takes it very seriously and therefore learns quickly. Learning to ski to the upper levels or into the ninety-ninth percentile takes hard work and dedication, you will encounter frustration at times especially in the slow exacting exercises, but you can be assured and confident deep into your soul that this is the only right and true path you are on to achieve you skiing goals. All the other methods have huge flaws, that are reversible but who has the time in life, to waste such energy.

Some skiers ski to enjoy the slopes and the social aspects of skiing, some like to feel the snow and challenge of the slopes, others like to challenge themselves to see how far they can take their skills and abilities.

I have to say there is no contradiction to any of these goals at any level of PMTS, in camps or in PMTS instruction. We have the techniques, tools, drills and exercises and a complete teaching program. The most complete teaching program in the world of skiing. Any skier, what ever their skiing goal will enjoy skiing more, after PMTS instruction, or PMTS camps.

This is rarely said about PSIA or PSIA derived camps. I won?t divulge where is came from, but I have it first hand and from a credible source, a professional skier. I won?t name which organizations where mentioned as there were many, but his statement is clear.

?PMTS camps have no equal in the industry,? this is from a professional skier who came to a PMTS camp, after attending many others in the industry.

I know SCSA just posted he thought there were similarities between what the EPIC, PSIA gang was doing, but SCSA is not a PMTS instructor, nor an expert in deciphering ski technique, I think if he were to become a student of PMTS, like Max, he would not be so easily fooled by the PSIA gang. Just the fact that steering is the main focus of PSIA, defines it?s inadequacies, so there can be no commonality between the systems. PSIA is so completely imprecise, allowing inefficiencies of movement at every level, movements that will handicap skiers forever, with them anything goes. Contrary to what SCSA believes would be good for PMTS and Harb Ski Systems, I hope PSIA never understands, learns or becomes proficient in PMTS, as they will ruin it.

I am happy that you know and found Max501 and the valuable PMTS exercises he presents and how you can learn from the rich skiing foundation they develop, as they are the standards for the best skiing in the world.
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Postby idahorob » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:52 pm

I agree that PMTS is a complete system. I am a teacher of the Feldenkrais Method of somatic education, and was able to recognize the conjuntion of physics and the human form right away. PMTS made more sense to me than anything I'd heard before, even though I was mostly self-taught in skiing.

I didn't mention that on my day of drills I stopped and watched all the skiers that passed by and every single one of them did rotational turns. I did not see a real carved turn on the mountain all day, even from skiers that were fast and looked good. A guy I knew came by and said he was working on his "swing turns" because an instructor had told him his were weak. I watched his practice, but didn't see any turns at all, just pivoting and skidding first one way, then the other. Looked like it would work to control speed in a chute, but otherwise what's the point in learning such a technique?

I just kept quiet. He was having a great time and even if I'd told him about the tipping drills I was doing he would have tried it, not been able to do it right away, and quickly gone back to the goal of getting down the mountain smiling. Introducing people to PMTS concepts is tricky because they are addicted to their success and when a drill exposes a weakness they rush back to their habits like a dog to its vomit. Better to let us both just do what we were enjoying and wait until someone makes a sincere inquiry.
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Postby dewdman42 » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:23 pm

I don't know how PSIA brain washed skiers can even enjoy skiing the way they do. They are completely missing the bus on the sensations.

I used the the boot touch drill which I got from Essentials, to help a couple of skiers experience counter-balancing on their outside ski. These skiers were "expert" off-piste skiers, ex-ski patrol dynamite throwers and one that regularly leaps off huge drops, etc.. Neither one of them new how to truly carve. After one single run of trying this drill and working it back into some turns they both experienced new sensations that they had no idea even existed. They simply did not even realize how much power and capability is built into the skis they were riding around on. Huge smiles and "oh my god" phrases being uttered from their mouths. We are talking about skiers who have been skiing for 25+ years, would be considered experts by most standards(and indeed they are off piste experts). They had no idea what they were missing on groomers.

A lot of PSIA folks unfortunately have the same problem. They honestly have no idea because they've never felt what its like to truly carve this kind of turn and experience the sensation of a ski that is bent, carving like crazy and really solid and stable under foot. They think they have, but they haven't. They have obtained some easy railroad track turns, but that extra little bit that generates the big G, tight carving turn on hard snow or off camber...they have no idea. I see this all around me at my home mountain by nearly every PSIA guy I see. Drives me crazy.

And tragically, the very method that they believe in takes them further away from carving shangrila. SCSA, I know that SSH think he carves, but sorry I've seen his video and he is mediocre at best. He is most definitely not anywhere close to the level that he could attain if stopped arguing with Max and others and actually tried PMTS on for size.

I think live and let live. I, for one, am tired of trying to convince people who have a closed mind. I'm sure they have having fun, so I leave them alone. They can do whatever they want.
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Postby idahorob » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:48 pm

The carving that I see is in the lower C part of the turn, after they've changed direction by skidding the tails. This is my own way of "cheating" on the carve, so I understand how it's done. The hopping drills, from stationary on pure flat ground to edge changing on a straight run, really helped me with that.

And you're right--the sensations when you get the whole turn are wonderful. Skidding the turns is like eating the menu and thinking you had a great meal.
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Postby calmman » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:28 pm

idahorob wrote: Skidding the turns is like eating the menu and thinking you had a great meal.


... gawd, beautifully put...
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Postby Max_501 » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:33 pm

dewdman42 wrote:They honestly have no idea because they've never felt what its like to truly carve this kind of turn and experience the sensation of a ski that is bent, carving like crazy and really solid and stable under foot.


Bending, and I mean really BENDING, the skis takes all of the Essentials and many skiers just don't have all of the them nailed yet.

As Rob said, do the drills. And then do them again and again and again. Do them everyday you are on the slopes. Mix it up to keep it interesting. When free skiing pick one or two Essentials and focus on bringing them into your skiing. On flatter runouts work on Counter Balance and Counter Acting movements. These are very hard at slow speed yet they will add a large amount of oomph to your skiing once you are doing them without thinking about it.
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Postby horst » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:08 am

Well put. ^^^

I just ordered HH's new book, and am looking forward to checking it out. But the cold war mentality is really off-putting... peinlich.
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Postby Sidecut » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:14 am

SCSA wrote:You guys are sideways.

I've seen some pretty good skiing. From D Team members, to ssh and cgeib. I mean, so what, a skier doesn't make every turn perfect.

But on the other hand, I'm gettting a little tired of having to explain myself everywhere I go, just because I follow PMTS and wear the stickers. I'm also getting tired of missing out on skiing with nice people like ssh. I have friends now, that teach skiing.

Hey man. I ski @ Vail and Aspen 80 to 100 days a year. Off piste and then some, skiing hard. I know what the friggin score is out there.


First of all SSH is a LVL 2. In his instructor bio he says he's "working on Lvl3". A Level 2 is a skier of intermediate ability. If he's still working on 3 then the guy can't ski. Now you think he's a good skier. That says to me that you don't have much of an eye for skiing. One look at that guy standing on his skis and I can tell he can't buy a turn.

If you don't like to explain yourself then take the stickers off. No one needs you to be a martyr for PMTS. Go hang with your new friends that teach skiing. Mediocre skiers like you Mr. "I ski vail and Aspen 80-100 days a year" are a dime a dozen. In fact they have a whole organization, it's called PSIA. Go sign up.
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Postby idahorob » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:23 am

Hey, SCSA, I didn't mean to start something here that would offend you. And I agree this obsession with the perfect carved turns can get us off-track very quickly. For those who want to ski in any way that pleases them, I say that's great and the more options the better.

My recommendation to do the drills is directed to those who come here and read Harald's books and want to ski like that. If you want to ski another way you can enjoy your mountain any way you want.

What I find, though, is that myself and just about everyone else thinks they are doing one thing and are really doing something else. I THINK I'm initiating my turns purely by tipping the skis, when what I'm really doing is cheating with a little tail skid just to get started.

I'd offer the question, "Am I really doing what I think I'm doing?" After you answer that, I couldn't give a rat about how you ski, provided you don't run into me. For those of us who think we're carving turns, or those of us who want to, this question is absolutely necessary. If you like skidded turns, jumping turns, or no turns at all, that's your business. As long as you're doing what you intend to do you'll enjoy your skiing. But it you want the carving, all I'm saying is you'll have a hard time finding a better way to determine if you're really doing what you think you're doing (or what you want to do) than Harald's drills. That's all I mean and I apologize if this has turned into an attack on you or your friends.
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Postby Hobbit » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:35 am

Let's not start a new dispute which does not fit into the subject of the thread.
The last comments are just inappropriate. Do not forget about the difference between an electronic forum and the real life. I don't think you skied with SCSA to comment on his level of skiing. Do not comment on ssh skiing unless you skied with him as well.
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Postby milesb » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:52 am

Hey Sidecut, your comments about SCSA are way out of line. He was just making nice about some folks he skied with, doesn't mean he wants to ski like them.
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Postby Harald » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:13 pm

Why am I responding to Paul, who is a friend, in the following way? Because it?s reality and if anything I?ve always been real, and honest from the heart and no afraid to hide it. Paul, have you forgotten who I ski with and have skied with? Are you telling me who great skiers are and what they do? You are very easily impressed. I have to agree with Sidecut and Idaho Rob on this one.

Do I need to remind you I ski with some of the best in the world every season, and they are not the skiers you are talking about. I never said I ski as well or can keep up with the best, or even the group you ski with, I have never said that, I leave that to the observers, yet you use me as a standard to compare to your skier friends. So you think you found someone who can smoke me, great, thanks for mentioning it, that makes you great.

You have never seen me ski when I ski for myself, yet you are now the expert on all skiers. You have never skied with me on a real mountain and I?m not talking about Vail or A-Basin, I?m talking sick lines at places like Kicking Horse or Alyeska where you wouldn?t go.

I know where I stand and I know what I can do, I?m very comfortable with that. I have nothing to prove, I did all the proving I needed to do in my athletic career, when I was a skiing athlete, now I am a professional skier, and businessman, not a skiing athlete. So smoke away on me.

Paul, unfortunately you made this a public issue, so I will respond to your comments in public, You still don?t get it! You don?t have the skiing eye or technical knowledge to tell the difference between average, good and great skiers. You have yet to know how to judge or evaluate where your own skiing fits.

Paul, you ski well, you have learned a lot, but now you are projecting and portraying yourself beyond your capabilities. You don?t get it. You are missing the point. You have come a long way, but you are not there. Many skiers that we coach, in much shorter time frames have pasted you, not because they ski more, I can assure you of that, but because they are more dedicated and focused then you are.

Read the beginning introduction to Essentials again, there?s a message there, maybe you missed it. It?s about Stenmark?s approach to skiing. Which is the same approach as all the Masters in their sports. Phil Mahre just said the other day, ? I don?t rank as a skier, there is only one skier who was dominant and that is Stenmark?.

Watch Federer and watch Tiger. They are never sloppy, even when under pressure. Stenmark can make perfect turns, Federer perfect strokes and Tiger, perfect swings every time. Do they do it in competition, not always, but ninety nine percent of the time.

Why am I explaining this? Because I?m trying to guide you to the next level of knowing yourself. There?s a long way to go still, but that?s the challenge and the enjoyment of knowing there?s a path, to personal perfection and personal satisfaction. Will we ever achieve it, maybe not, most likely not, but there are days where we can feel it. I?m still looking for it.

So go ahead, look for it your way, you can be a hero with the PSIA group, maybe you have found what you want out of skiing at that level, and you are satisfied with yourself, ( you go through this every year), now you again find yourself content, good for you, but it won?t make you a real skier, in my eyes. But if you don?t care then it?s OK, be satisfied and I?ll be happy for you, but don?t bring that level of interpretation of skiing to the forum, because you begin to sound like an Epic poster.

You don?t know yourself, and you hide from the reality of yourself, I mean in skiing, I am not using this as a metaphor for life, if you want to, that?s your prerogative. Your present state of skiing knowledge is good, but it?s only a little better than most. There are many PMTS campers that ski far beyond your ability and technical development. If you are so easily satisfied then I say go for it, be happy, but don?t tell me or others here, who the great skiers are.

Please stop defending PMTS it doesn't need it from anyone. If you need to defend PMTS, you're not skiing PMTS, I have yet to have to defend my skiing on any slope to any skier, it's usually the other way around. They want to know how to ski the way I do.
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Postby Harald » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:35 pm

I do all the drills in the Essentials book and I know when I do them correctly or incorrectly. I do the drills everywhere, on steeps, on bumps, in crud, not just on groomers. I want to ski with the same easy fluid style on all conditions without mistakes and recoveries. And when a recovery is needed, I know I am at my limit, and therefore I must gear it down, become better balanced, more focused or better trained.

I never say I?m skiing great, I?m just skiing the way I believe skiing should be done, the way the greatest Master of all time skied, he did it in all conditions, like he was just skiing. That is a Master, not a pseudo impression of a master skier, throwing their bodies downhill, on 95mm twin tips making no arcs, going straight.

Anyone who skied on a World Downhill course laughs at these imposters, as this is the easiest way to ski. It doesn?t take skill to ski, wide, heavy twin tips, down the Vail bowls at high speed, it takes youth, some measure of guts and repetition.
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Postby Narrowfeet » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:04 pm

It is a recreational sport. Lighten up.

By the way, Tiger has hit more than a few in the trees.

It is all about having fun and not about the perfect turn.

At least in my opinion.
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