fat skis suck

[milesb]

People use fat skis everyday in Colorado?

[HERB]

Most of the kids are on fat boards

[Max_501]

Out here, if you look around in the lift lines most of the skis are fat skis. On a daily basis.

Tons of fat skis here too. Don't know why people want to use them on hardpack but I think they have a place in deep heavy snow.

[Sidecut]

Going up the chair, an older gentleman on longer straighter skis looked at my skis and said: no wonder you can handle the powder so well with those fat skis.

This is funny yet true. A couple of seasons ago I was putting my Volkl order in and my friend in West Leb suggested the Racestock jr GS ski for my son. I was sceptical and asked her well what about in powder and crud. She simply said: "Don't you remember that you skeid powder on skinny GS skis?"

The point being that even race skis are much wider under foot than the old skinny skis. I don't even own a pair of Fat skis. I own a pair of AC4's which are a midfat. I only take those out when there is a couple of feet of snow. For a foot or 18" it's really not necessary and truth be told it's not really necessary for 2 feet.

[Sidecut]

I thought there was something different about the PMTS movement but it sounds like more closed-mindedness of ?technique junkies?. It?s starting to sound like the Supershapes and other similar skis are becoming a crutch, can?t make your carved turns without your training wheels, err, skinny waists and super sidecuts.

Good skiing is good skiing regardless of the equipment used. PMTS should be able to withstand the test of multiple types of terrain and various forms of equipment but from where I?m standing it?s really starting to look like it?s failing the gear test. But it shouldn?t be! The releasing, phantom moves, upside downess, etc. all transfer to strong skiing in many types of terrain using all kinds of types of skis. I don?t think it?s smart to paint yourself or the system into a corner.

The exact opposite is true. PMTS movements are so effective that you don't need the crutch of equipment such as fat skis.

[milesb]

The point is that it's easier to learn how to properly edge narrow waisted skis. Learning the movements (especially free foot tipping) on wider skis can lead to moving the knee and upper body to tip the skis, because of the greater effort involved. Those things can caused undesired rotation and/or a disruption of the kinetic chain in the high c part of the turn.
See for yourself, try doing a weighted release on 90mm wide skis on hard snow using only your stance foot to tip the ski. Or try carving the high c on a steep slope with a minimal sidecut ski. Those extreme examples can be done, but it's more difficult than with a narrow waist ski with alot of sidecut. However, none of this matters if the goal is TTS or typical self-taught skiing. Which is why I don't think those wide skis are holding most skiers back, only those that believe that carving (and the necessary movements to achieve it) is the foundation of expert skiing.

That said, there are plenty of days when my 167 rossi 9s' have left me struggling. And PMTS technique will work on all skis, but most of us are not proficient enough to achieve the desired level of performance on them.

[milesb]

Liam, you should take SCSA's post as an example of a local phenomenom. A tale of Vail, if you will. I'm sure you can find something comparable at your ski area.

[Max_501]

My point is that the PMTS movement shouldn't limit itself to one tool.

It doesn't. Its just much easier to learn on a sub 70mm SL shaped ski.

I have the Atomic M:EX and ski them just fine with PMTS movements.

[stikki987]

[quote="Max_501"]It doesn't.[/quote]

I know it doesn't limit itself but to an observer the frenzy over shaped SL skis and thread titles of 'fat skis suck' sure makes it appear that way.

[richk]

For years I tried to learn PMTS using fat/mid-fat skis: Chubbs, Pocket Rockets, Atomic 10X. Last year, I switched to SS and I have found that I'm making much better progress in learning the movement patterns.

I think what happened is that with the fatter skis I couldn't get them tipped enough so I would eventually use some of my old habits just to get the skis around. In addition, since I can now get them up on the early edges I get the immediate feedback that reinforces the right movement patterns. If I make a sloppy turn, it feels so different from a good turn that by the next turn, I can make an adjustment in technique.

I have tried some wider skis again just to see the difference, and it is definitely real, for my skill level. My turns were better than before I learned the PMTS technique, but the change in equipment had an effect. I have no doubt many on this forum can do perfect PMTS turns without narrow-waisted skis, but I can't. On the other hand, I'm skiing better than ever and am thrilled to have equipment that is helping me.

I surely don't care what others ski on. Their choice!

When I went from the traditional long and skinny skis to Chubbs, in powder it was like a miracle. Of course, since I was stemming and skidding, in hard snow it didn't matter what I was using! But now my aspirations are higher and I'm working much harder on technique so I want my equipment to support my efforts.

When I see a student try the movements and not get the expected result because the equipment makes the task more difficult, I find that troubling and the student finds it to be frustrating. PMTS skills, while effective, take time to learn and everyone needs reinforcement to keep up the effort.

So, if you're just out there to have a wonderful time, enjoy! -- and ski on whatever you want. If you're trying to perfect your PMTS moves, you might find shorter-radius-turn-skis aid your learning.

[François]

Is it ok if I speed down a few narrow runs on my old 68-mm waisted SGs?

[Joseph]

Fat Skis?! This is bothering you? Just the fact that there are fat skis in Eagle Co. indicates that you live in an area that actually has some snow once in a while. Powder day? What's that? Paul, thank the good lord you've got snow, my friend. I haven't seen it once this year. I'd love to see some fat skis on the hill, that would mean fluffy white stuff. I've seen more 4 leaf clovers on the the hill than snowflakes this winter.

Joseph

[milesb]

You want I should dig up one of your old "Short Skis Suck" posts?

[Hobbit]

No, it's an excellent post.
I went to Beav on the same day but when I saw the parking scene which was the scariest I've ever seen I just left. I had a great day of skiing in Keystone.
Fat skis do not suck, but unfortunately most people who ride them do. So if you are a good skier the post is not about you and there is no point of arguing. The bad part is all this marketing when they convince people that they can ski powder with these "magic" boards. You can hardly find a decent pair of skis in the stores. Most skis they sell are 80+ mm in waist. Same thing in the rental places. So before this "fat revolution" those guys would just stay home but now they suddenly can ski powder and they are dangerous.

[Icanski]

I have several skis: SS (new two weeks ago) I love them.
Stockli laser SC from 04/05: a SL-GS hybrid racing ski. It's very fast but not as easy to carve and turn as the SS. Nice ski, but lots of work.
and the Stockli Snake BC: Suffice to say, I was advised away from them at Fernie. And with good reason. They were very hard to turn and carve. they're quite wide and twins, and it took much more effort to get them on edge. In powder, probably much better. I am probably going to be unloading them to some of the younger instructors I work with who want them for the park.
I'm told Stockli has a new ski coming out which is the XXL which won't be as stiff and wide as the DP Pro. More of an all mountain ski. For my use: the SS are my teaching and day to day ski. If I go west, I'll take them and maybe eventually get a mid fat (70s) for big snow but I think the fat skis tend to be more "ridden" than skied. But I've seen some pretty wicked big mountain skiers fly on the big boards at Alta. Like you say, it's all in what you like, how you use it, and how much you want to work.
But "less is more" does have a nice resonance to it.
As for the attitude of blaming people and all, I agree with the other guy who said it'll discourage lurkers and others. Save that for the rush hour traffic, or better, find a quieter slope and get back to the skiing, let the other stuff go.
So many magazines and films make it seem like unless you have a teenager attitude, try to bank off every stair rail, wall, or other skier, you're not cool. For me, that's not what skiing is about, they can play in the park and leave the rest of the mountain for others. I'd like to see the publications more positive about the sport, to keep it growing. One thing I will say about the park skiers and boarders is that they are enthusiastic.
Back to the hills,
Icanski