Weighted release vs. Phantom

[davey]

It seems that almost all discussion on PMTS on this board is focused on the Phantom, in which you release by shifting weight to the inside ski's LTE, but there's almost no talk of the weighted release which was mentioned in the Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier series. The weighted release is where you keep pressure on the outside ski until after transition.

Why all the emphasis on Phantom but none on weighted release? I would like to learn more about the weighted release and what are some of the advantages and disadvantages of it vs the Phantom and when should you use either one.

Thanks in advance.

[midwif]

I am sure more of the 'learned' will chime in, but my sense is that the phantom is geared toward the myriad of skiers like myself who were taught the wedge initially and then found themselves caught in the intermediate zone with no way out.
The phantom is mostly a teaching device to replacement one ingrained muscle movement with another, more efficient one. Once the concept of lift/tip is part of the skiers muscle memory, then it can be refined to the weight release.

[milesb]

In general a weighted release is good for a longer transition where the pressure is not going to build so quickly. Because it's best not to have a whole lot of pressure on a highly flexed inside leg. It seems to be really good for taking a precise line in bigger turns. Another situation more applicable for most skiers is in deep snow and gentle bump skiing.

[Max_501]

I think of the phantom and the weighted release as two extremes. In expert all mountain skiing you can have all your weight on either ski or some combination of the two. The key is to learn how to ski on all four edges and the weighted release is one of the tools to help in your learning.

[dewdman42]

This is a great question and I hope HH will respond to it when he comes back. the PMTS instructors manual states that the weighted release is helpful for skiers who release properly with the downhill ski but still tend to twist the new outside ski to get it on edge. The weighted release changes the order of movement so that complete transfer of weight to the outside ski does not occur until the falline. (according to instructor manual)

That is in direct opposition to the phantom move where the weight is transferred completely to the new outside ski at the very top of the turn, even to the point of standing on the LTE of that ski and counterbalancing over it early.

He has also said in book2 that the weighted release is how skiers learn to allow themselves to flow down the mountain a little more, rather than standing on the LTE of the uphill ski at the top of the turn. Balancing on that LTE edge at the top of the turn is a useful skill. However, many skiers that are still advancing towards expert skiing may find themselves hung up a bit on that LTE and not allowing their COM to fall into the center of the next turn. I believe the weighted release is designed to free the skier from feeling like they need to hang out on the LTE of the new outside ski.

Rather they can allow their COM to topple down the hill into the new turn. I do not view the weighted release as a justification for evenly weighted skiing. The difference here is that we start to fall into the new turn well before a complete weight transfer has occurred. This helps skiers to stop trying to rush to the BTE of their new outside ski. In my view, we're still striving for outside ski dominance but we're just spreading out the amount of time we take to transfer weight from old outside to new outside. By the time we get to the falline we should be standing on the stance ski again.

Additionally Harald does point out in video2 that the ability to be on either ski at a moments notice is very handy skill for variable conditions where things can happen and we can recover. However, I do not view that as the primary motive behind the weighted release, I view that as a side benefit.

[SLAVA]

Weighted release gives instant feed back if you counter balance in place
It also will help to ?slow down? edge changing in upper C of the turn eliminating ski twist.
I love it. It is a part of my every day ski routine.

[John Mason]

One of the things about PMTS that helped me so much is it's focus on one ski drills. But, the addage you hear the PMTS instructors say, "lifting is for learning, lightening is for experts" applies. The Super Phantom is a great tool for progressing from one legged drills to linked ski turns. But ultimately both feet come down and you learn how to ski on either foot at either time.

HH and many other race coaches have their students ski down on one foot only for both turns. Kindly he normally doesn't have us do that because it's tough. But the point is, as has been said, the Super Phantom and the pure weighted release are opposites, yet the common movement patterns are flexion of the stance ski combined with tipping. It's just how much flexion and how fast. The weighed release, tipping while weighted into the entry of the new turn is harder for me than a more super phantom style, but I feel the more weighted release approach really grabs you into the next turn compared to the more passive super phantom.

The point is, and Ott described a pure Super Phantom in his synopsis of a PMTS style turn in the now locked thread, that PMTS teaches you how to ski on either leg at any time and use all 4 edges. Many outsiders looking in on the PMTS world just see the Super Phantom and don't realize that thats one style of release.

In addition to the weighted release and the super phantom release and the varations between those extremes there is also the very passive beginner 2 footed release. That beginner release is not carved, certainly does not allow carving the high-c portion of the turn but is a great turn to get a total beginner up to the blues on their 1st or 2nd day.

[davey]

Thanks for all the great detailed responses. I've learned so much from this board. Someone mentioned that the weighted release was better for
bigger turns. Is it the case that it is harder to do the weighted release for
quick short radius turns?

[ChuckT]

Finally practicing tipping on a carpeted ramp this morning, I found that I tend to have most of my weight on the LTE of the downhill foot at the simulated high C position. It's much harder for me to maintain balance with more weight on the BTE of the uphill foot. Can I think of this as the weighted release or am I doing something wrong and should strive to balance on the uphill BTE?

As SCSA said, "It's easy to get good at doing the drills wrong".[/quote]

[dewdman42]

My personal feeling is that the dryland board is a great place to practice balancing skills, tipping skills, not neccessarily release skills, which kind of require some G-forces to do correctly. Where your weight resides in this static position will be effected more by your counterbalancing efforts in relation to the slope you're standing on. However, in a real turn there are G forces and that changes a lot.

[ChuckT]

Understood. I think I mixed up the two aspects in my question. I should have asked about how to achieve balance correctly in this drill.

In the high-C portion of the turn in actual skiing, do we balance with most of our weight on the BTE of the uphill ski (new stance ski)? If so, then in the dryland exercise we also want to balance on the BTE, right?

When I did this drill, my posture seems OK, I think, but the sensation is definitely of the weight on the LTE. Is that a sign that I have not achieved the right static balance for this drill and should keep working until I can balance on the BTE?

I was hoping for the easy way out but definitely don't want to do the drill incorrectly

[dewdman42]

This is a static balance drill. If you can, try to get to where you can do it both ways, by balancing mostly on your downhill LTE, or your uphill BTE or even between the two. In actual skiing you will be progressing in a continuum from being balanced on one ski to being balanced on the other. The G forces and centripetal inertia contribute.

There are going to be times when you need to be able to balance on the BTE of that outside (uphill leg)..and other times when the weighted release with some of the weight remaining on the downhill ski will make sense..at least for a while. Bottom line, try to master both.

I think the main point of the slanted board is to get you to counterbalance more. If you are on the LTE side of downhill ski, then you are not counterbalanced as much as you would need to be in order to balance on the BTE of the uphill ski. Try to see if you can counterbalance even more.

The real trick is making that move to go from being counterbalanced on the uphill edges to being counterbalanced on the downhill edges.

[ChuckT]

Got it, Dewdman. Thanks!