Transitions

[Narrowfeet]

My understanding is that the bread and butter PMTS transition is flexing the stance leg. I think this would be referred to as crossunder. In another post, Harald stated that an advanced PMTS skier can use crossunder, crossover and crosseven.

If I am correct that flexing the stance leg is crossunder, how does PMTS achieve crossover? What is crosseven and how is it accomplished?

Thanks

[dewdman42]

My understanding is that the bread and butter PMTS transition is flexing the stance leg.

Actually its that combined with aggressive tipping of that that same foot.

As far as the rest of your question, I am looking forward to Harald's response also.

[Narrowfeet]

I did not mean to imply that the transition was simply flexing. I was simplifying the point, because I believe that the flexing action is what creates the crossunder.

[milesb]

Why do you care if you are doing a crossover or crossunder, as long as you are flexing to start your turns?

[Narrowfeet]

My understanding is that the ski is bent, and the release releases the energy built up in the ski and accelerates you into the next turn. Thus, it would be crossunder.

Why do I care? I should have elaborated more on my initial question. If there is more than one way to release, what is the determining factor in deciding how to release for a specific turn?

Getting back to crossunder and over. Is the difference not in the manner of releasing, but the timing and dynamics. Crossunder would be a faster flexing action accompanied with timing it when the ski is fully bent. Crossover would be a slower flexing later in the bottom C. Am I close?

[Ken]

PMTS is Primary Movements Training System. The four primary movements are:
Tilting the feet at the ankles...inversion and eversion
Flexing and extending the legs
Dorsiflexion and extension of the ankles
Pulling the feet back under the hips
(is my memory correct?)

These are the bread & butter of PMTS. The secondary movements are the upper body movements that make the primary movements more effective. "PMTS Direct Parallel is biomechanically efficient and extremely effective"

Take a look at Harald's on-line lessons for a better sense of PMTS
[url=http://www.harbskisystems.com/lessonindex.htm[/url]


Ken

[Joseph]

Sounds like we've got a little hair splitting going on, sweet. I'm just getting back on snow, so I've got skiing on the mind. I'll play a little. Narrowfeet:

My understanding is that the ski is bent, and the release releases the energy built up in the ski and accelerates you into the next turn.

I hear this fairly often and I have to say that it's a bit of a misconception. Here's why. The first part of your statement is correct, as the ski bends it stores energy. The release indeed does release that energy, but not down the hill--back at your body. The ski does twist torsionally, but for what we're talking about, the reality is that the ski only bends in one direction and can therefore only unbend in the direction opposite the bend. It bends toward you, and then at the release, unbends in the opposite direction--away from you. This means that as the stance ski is released, the rebound that you experience is actually the energy in the ski pushing your stance foot back up toward your body. The sensation of accelerating into the turn is not the same energy. That energy comes from your body moving down the hill. When you tip a ski on edge and oppose it, the ski begins to bend. This bending of the ski is what makes a turn happen. Your body brings energy into the turn from gravity. You tip the ski on edge and begin to oppose it. Then the force of your body weight and momentum press down on the ski; the ski presses back (one of Newton's laws #2 I think--equal and opposite reaction and what not). As long as you continue to oppose that ski with force (i.e. hold that ski on edge and stand there) the ski will continue to turn. But as soon as you release that ski, there is no longer a force to keep your body from moving down the hill in the opposite direction of the ski's force (which was holding your body from moving downhill). When the ski is released and the opposing force is removed, your body moves downhill into the next turn. This is the sensation of accelerating into the turn to which you referred. It happens at the same time as the rebound of the ski (the release), so it is not surprising that they are often associated with one another. But this distinction is important and very relevant to the original discussion. PMTS teaches a skier to use the force of gravity that you build in the turn, to move your body into the next turn. Gravity does the work. In a "cross-over" turn, a skier extends the leg at transition resisting the force they have built. This extension costs energy and time. By the time most skiers have made this move, the direction of the force that you have built will no longer bring you down the hill on the release, or it is gone. Learning to use the force that your body builds as it moves down the mountain is a cornerstone of PMTS. The difference between this and the more traditional retraction "cross-under" turn is that in PMTS the body's center of mass moves over the feet into the new turn, whereas with "cross-under"(which I was always taught was the same as a retraction turn when I was a ski instructor) the feet move under the body and the C.M. stays relatively static in a direct path down the fall line.

Someone might look at this and wonder what the difference is. Sometimes these differences are so subtle that we are splitting hairs. But subtle differences are what separate me from an average recreational skier; and subtle differences separate a world cup racer from a guy like me. Here's to another season of hair-splitting.

Joseph

[dewdman42]

hmmm

first of all, the bend in the ski does not provide the release energy you feel when you relax your old stance leg. Not directly. The G forces of the last turn and your ability to hang on to the edge as long as possible are what give you that sensation when you finally release, what you are releasing is the pent up G forces that you've been holding back during the turn.

Cross under vs cross over, they are both useful in different situations and I don't think I would classify one as being more old school than the other. You could use a cross under in a situation like slalom where you need to get very quickly from one side to the other, and there is no time to wait for your COM to fall into the next turn. However, on GS it usually makes more sense to use a cross over since cross over provides a way to move your COM down the mountain faster with less side to side action required by your skis.

So from from a tactics perspective, I would say you use cross under when you need to make a quick lateral movement across the mountain. You hold on to those carving edges just a little bit longer in order to direct all the saved up G forces sideways. When you finally release, your skis will be zipping laterally across the hill much faster than your COM is moving down the hill. However, for a longer GS type turn, you want a bit more moderation, so you release appropriately and your COM has time to move over the top into the new turn in a smooth way. Neither is old school or better than the other. Its all about tactics and timing. I happen to think that cross under is a lot of fun. But its too much energy for certain situations.

I'm not at all sure what cross-even is, it must be something halfway between the two.

[Max_501]

My understanding is that the bread and butter PMTS transition is flexing the stance leg. I think this would be referred to as crossunder. In another post, Harald stated that an advanced PMTS skier can use crossunder, crossover and crosseven.

I never think about what type of release I'm going to use. I always do it the same way which is relaxing my outside leg. If I'm carving or skiing at speed and I relax my extended leg, my upper body (CM) moves right across the skis. Don't know what you call it, but that's how I release.

[Harald]

The last three or five new threads are great. I can't wait to join in, but I'm in the middle of a camp 6am to 9pm schdule. SO until Saturday or Sunday, I'll just have to keep my powder dry. You guys are doing a great job, keep it up.

HH

[Ott Gangl]

Joseph explained it pretty well, I just want to add that if you want to know if you are doing a cross-over or a cross-under just look at your tracks. In a cross-over your skis stay on the snow and the track will be continuous, unbroken. In a cross-under the track most likely will be broken as your skis move to the other side while your body continuous on its path.

Though you actually CAN ski cross-under by keeping your skis on the snow and cranking them under you back and forth, most don't and do use the rebound of the skis to lighten the load on them while moving the tails to the other side, it is much faster.

As to when to use one over the other? Don't think about it, cross-under will come when you need to ski a very narrow corridor and when it opens up the more tempered cross-over will take over.

.....Ott

P.S...I never heard of cross-even but I'm sure someone will enlighten me.

[Icanski]

PMTS is Primary Movements Training System. The four primary movements are:
Tilting the feet at the ankles...inversion and eversion
Flexing and extending the legs
Dorsiflexion and extension of the ankles

Pulling the feet back under the hips

(is my memory correct?)

These are the bread & butter of PMTS. The secondary movements are the upper body movements that make the primary movements more effective. "PMTS Direct Parallel is biomechanically efficient and extremely effective"

Take a look at Harald's on-line lessons for a better sense of PMTS
[url=http://www.harbskisystems.com/lessonindex.htm[/url]


Ken

Hi Ken,
I don't know if I quoted correctly but the four Primary movements are:
Lateral tipping of the feet,
flexion and extension
dorsi- and plantar flexion
and fore and aft balance.

Pulling the feet back is almost a sort of fifth movement, but it is part of maintaining fore and aft balance.
regards,
John

[Icanski]

I'm not sure if this touches on the original question of that feeling sometimes of accelerating at the end of a turn, but it's something one of the CSIA instructors always says as his reason for not teaching carving to even intermediate skiers: "carving accelerates, skidding slows and controls speed..." but I don't want to go there now

I find there's also a kind of acceleration I feel at the end of the turn if I put a bit of pressure on the heels, as mentioned in HH's books, if I don't release right away and get the acceleration of my COM crossing and moving downhill; there is a feeling I get of moving acrossthe hill, that is, in the direction my skis are pointing, but as soon as I release, gravity allows my body/COM to go more down the fall line. I find it rather fun to get that little zip across the hill, and in crud or soft but not deep snow, you can catch a little air and turn in the air, as the Des Lauriers describe: and "airplane" turn.

There's also the kind of acceleration one feels if one gets in the back seat coming across the hill and feel your skis zoom out ahead of you, but this is usually the "prelude to disaster" and often an ACL can be heard popping soon after. For those of us old enough to remember "hot dogging" this was known as a "jet turn". Often aided by "jet stix" jammed into the back of your old black Lange Comps...but I digress in my old age

It's all about "using the Force" as Harald says, and playing with it. There's nothing like that sensation of speed or flying when the edges carve deeply and you hit that deep inside racer-like movement like Harald's avatar. I just started to really experience it last Spring and I can't wait to get it back soon when the snow flies here.

crossing out,
John

[Bob]

I am an avid read of PMTS material, but an not familiar with this crossover/under terminology. I am interested to learn more, but do not want to confuse myself or simly misunderstand some of this written advice.

I tend to ski much like Max in the sense of "how I think and attempt to release and transition and so forth". I wish I tended to carve the high part of the C like him, but I think that will take a few more camps!!

HH, hopefully when time permits you can shed a short and sweet explanation of your view on these movements.

[Joseph]

Yeah, Serious. I think you're right now that I think of it. Over and under referring to the CM either crossing over the skis, or the feet crossing under the CM. So we would be doing both quite often. I must confess I don't think about this sort of stuff when I ski. I always just thought of cross-over as up and over, but I suppose you don't have to go up to go over.

Bob, I think you're right on. How you release is probably a much better focus than worrying about whether you're crossing over or under.