Best arguments against hopping

[krijn]

I believe that going continuously going up and down between turns - go down before turn, pole plant, extending body and use body strength to create turns
- is not one of the primary movements in skiing (carving turns).

Because some ski instructors tell me otherwise, I'm looking for very strong, simple arguments that will end this very long discussions.

Does anyone have smart answers for these (old school ?) technique.

Or am I wrong ?

Thanks

[jbotti]

Besides the fact that it is painfully inelegant and you never see WC skiers making this move, the very best reason to avoid getting tall in turns is because as you lenghten the body and straighten your legs you actually increase the force and pressure on the snow. This is a fact that seems to be lost on those that teach this move.

Many people think that WC skiiers in speed events sit in a tuck becuase of the aerodynamic position. Although this is the most areodynamically efficient position, with the least wind resistance, it also is the position in which the skis have the least pressure with snow, thereby creating less resistance, and hence allowing faster speeds.

In PMTS in order to engage edges you must first release the edges from the previous turn. The position of maximum release is the flexed position (almost a tuck) that you see WC racers in at transition. Extension does the opposite. Beacuse it actually increases force and pressure on the snow, it forces (or encourages) one to twist and rotate to the big toe edge to engage the edges in the new direction.

I hope that helps. I'm sure Harald could add few things to this. JB.

[4Slide]

Down-unweighting or retraction to release the edge is also far less physically tiring than up-unweighting or hopping. And, it's also more fun, the sidecut won't pull you into a nice arc unless you let it work for you.

Don't expect to "win" arguments with ski instructors over this, though.

[krijn]

Thanks.

I have use these arguments before but .. didn't help.
After some discussion they always start talking about 'always ski both legged'. They think they are skiing always with equal pressure on both skis, witch of course isn't true because they tend to jump a little in turns, I have seen some ski edges in the air when they turn.
When I try to explain PMTS a little further they always say : 'that's old school, you turn on one leg!'. Then they immediately stop discussion and have a drink.

I definitely need some discussion training sessions !

[4Slide]

Well, you have to admit they have a pleasant way to redirect the conversation!

The one-legged thing I always find amusing. First, the PMTS progression as I understand doesn't encourage lifting the inside ski off the ground in later stages. Second, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhgUYPxBQ1I here's hopefully a link showing one pretty good skier lifting his inside ski while freeskiing.

[Harald]

Catskill, thank you so much for posting that link. In my first book and video we bring skiers along teaching them balance and the Phantom Move by and with lifting and tilting. The reason we teach lifting and tilting is three fold,
1. To learn to change balance.
2. To learn to release with the old stance ski and flex the old stance leg.
3. To learn how to use the forces to change edges.

Thomas Grandi lifted his old stance ski when he skied in my first video and he is still doing it (10 years later) after countless World Cup victories. He was possibly the best GS racer on theWC last season with back to back victories in GS and he added a slalom to that.

[Whygimf]

Thomas Grandi was possibly the best GS racer on the WC last season with back to back victories in GS and he added a slalom to that.

Grandi won 2 WC GS's in a row 2 seasons ago (05), with a GS podium to his credit last season. He has never won a WC slalom.

[Harald]

So what's your point? Are you saying he's not worth watching, or emulating? Or that we don't want to ski as well as he does, or he isn't valid as an example for PMTS or he doesn't ski the way we present technique on the forum?

I?m sorry I mis-counted, let me change my tally, he has only placed 2nd two times in World Cup slaloms and 3rd three times in WC slaloms or is it four times, (basically at least 6 WC slalom podiums)

I didn't count every race or season in the last ten years, I sorry I wasn't exact, (he did win 2 WC GS races in a row) but it really doesn?t matter. I?m not here to prove Grandi is a great skier, most can see that for themselves without nit-picking over a race or two.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html? ... ype=result

[4Slide]

Frankly, what with the shop, instruction, travel and a life, I'd be concerned that there was a problem in one of those areas if I heard that someone was also taking the time to memorize the exact results for every WC'er.

Here's Paerson, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp4YzgmhwW0 , I confess I have no idea how many slaloms she's won. At all. Also picking up the inside ski/old stance ski.

[Harald]

What a great service I didn't know all that WC video was posted on Youtube.

[ginaliam]

Just for clarification when you say 'hopping' Are we talking about bouncing up and down in the the course of an average turn or are we talking about regular honest to goodness hop turns (actually leaving the snow to turn).

"cause if it's the latter-though I strive for high-C carves in every situation-there have been more than a few times as I threaded my way through gnarly, super tight, steep nasty snow rocky chutes in order to access something prime that I was rather grateful i'd learned some old-fashioned hop turns somewhere in past!

Yeah-I can't see an instructor making such a movement the foundation for skiing or learning to carve effectively (as it's obviously counter to the right movements)-but as a defensive-"hey if you're in trouble or in something tighter and steeper than you have the ability to carve try this" sort of thing-I could see an instructor teaching it to his/ her aspiring off-piste would-be expert students.

[Icanski]

I've got several videos of the DesLaurier brothers skiing. They often lift the inside ski and tip the free foot, and on really steep, and I mean REALLY steep, they also do what they call a "pedal turn" where they leap in the air and land on the new edges in a new direction, but they aren't really "turning" to me, so much as doing aerial direction changes. They are going right down the fall line, and leap to change the edges, rather than skidding down. In their less steep skiing, they use many PMTS techniques though they sometimes give them a slightly different name. I asked Eric where he learned to ski, and he credited Harald with a lot of it.

As for talking with the "hoppers" ( I think the CSIA falls into that category...given what HH kept pointing out at Fernie) they often say to me that carving speeds up turns and skidding is used to control and slow down turns, and that's why they don't teach carving until later levels, because beginners, especially kids, aren't able to carve.
I have suggested to them that that's because we don't teach them how to use their edges, or balance until much later and even then they only start to teach them to edge at the end of the turn (CSIA phase 1).

The odd thing to me, is that in the two years I've taught at my little resort, no one has ever asked for a demonstration, or more than a few words about PMTS. When I answer their question about what is different and I say, we don't use a wedge for one thing, we teach balance and parallel skiing from the start; they go quiet, and don't go any further. It's strange. One person asked me, when I was going to go to Fernie for my cert test for PMTS "why would you want to do that?" I said I wanted to learn to really ski.

One ski patroller asked me to show him, and then to go through some basics with him. After an hour he was hooked and grinning from ear to ear. He said he loved it, and went out to buy the books. Every time he saw me he wanted to take a run (which lasts about five minutes ) and ask some more. I sometimes feel like John the Baptist, crying in the wilderness. But I'll just ski PMTS when I ski, and see if example gets them to ask some questions, and if they don't, that's fine. I enjoy my friends in the CSIA, and I've learned alot from them, too, but PMTS is just such a different ride. Perhaps when some clients ask for me, for PMTS at the school, the director will catch on, and look into it.
In the meantime, I'll keep learning here.
And only hop when I have to.
John

[Harald]

I believe that going continuously going up and down between turns - go down before turn, pole plant, extending body and use body strength to create turns
- is not one of the primary movements in skiing (carving turns).

I think this is what is meant by hopping .

[krijn]

Thanks all !

I've sent them the YouTube links and the hhsortturns.mpg link wich I think is also a good example. Hope they get it now.

I think I found there ski instruction methods on

http://www.ski-jungle.com/better-skiing/ch3.htm

and http://www.ski-jungle.com/better-skiing/ch4.htm (short turns)[/quote]

[Ken]

That ski instruction is state of the art...30 years ago. I guess ski technique writers are like everyone else...some get 30 years of experience, and some get one year of experience repeated 30 times.


Ken