Observations of TTS vs PMTS

[John Mason]

Here is an interesting thought I had - sort of in the vein of the knee pointing discussion.

One of the differences I noted while skiing with Pierre as he was pointing out to me other skiers performing perfect PSIA lvl III 'open parallel' turns, is that as the apex of the turn where a PMTS skier has maximum g's, is most inclined, and the stance leg is pretty much fully extended - the PSIA skier is almost lowest at that point then rises in transistion.

I got to thinking about it, and the 'rotate the legs into the direction of the turn via the hip rotators' which is a no no in PMTS - in PSIA if your knees are flexed and you are not extended, this rotational pressure would cause the knees to point in, increasing edging. No that I've become aware of this, I see it all the time on the slopes.

Is my understanding of the PSIA open parallel turn correct? Does it rely on knee pointing even if indirectly generated by rotation pressure? Does it require a skeletally weak bent knee position at the apex of the turn?

If so, then there is a set of concrete differences MA would show between a high end PSIA skier and any level of PMTS skier.

[dewdman42]

Seems like its very difficult to find out what PSIA wants officially. Harald's post earlier about them being kinda wishy washy and always having a back door way out is very interesting. I got my L1 a few weekends ago (I already have several levels of CSIA under me) and my examiner was telling me some interesting things. For one thing, he did not ski with a flexed leg at apex. He also mentioned that basically he has learned to "dance the dance" in terms of displaying what PSIA examiners want to see even if he goes away and skis and teaches a way he feels is better.

That being said, I do see a lot of skiers doing the move you talked about, INCLUDING PSIA D-Teamers. Here is some video of them I found a while back. You can see leg flexing in the middle of the turn all over the place.

http://www.v1sports.com/academy/psia/

When I saw this video...I was flabergasted.... These are supposed to be the best PSIA has to offer?

[Ott Gangl]

>>>One of the differences I noted while skiing with Pierre as he was pointing out to me other skiers performing perfect PSIA lvl III 'open parallel' turns, is that as the apex of the turn where a PMTS skier has maximum g's, is most inclined, and the stance leg is pretty much fully extended - the PSIA skier is almost lowest at that point then rises in transistion.<<<

John, the "maximum g's" aren't very much on terrain skied by most recreational skiers and are easily carried flexed or not. But in steep terrain the maximum G is at the very end of the turn, just before the transition, when your knees hit your chin if you are not in a strong skeletal position. If you give in to the gravitational pull before you finish the turn and let your body flow over the skis to the next turn, (a move that feels heavenly) you don't scrub enough speed and incrementally gain a little speed with every turn.

So advanced level skiers ski whichever way is called for.

>>>When I saw this video...I was flabergasted.... These are supposed to be the best PSIA has to offer?<<<

Dewdman42, you are kidding, right? Skiers at that level can ski any which way they are asked to make a turn. This is the present PSIA prescription. If tomorrow they were told that a new way to demo was like PMTS turn, they would demo them from the get-go. There is absolutely nothing hard in skiing the PMTS way, it is very easy, and I'm sure that Harald designed it to be learned and executed easily. And to belabor the talent of high level skiers some more, I venture that were you to ask Harald or Diana or Roger Kane, et al, if they were able to ski like the skiers in those videos they would laugh as they would demonstrate them. Or come and see me, I'll demonstrate both ways and I'll throw in some Austrian and French skiing styles



....Ott

[dewdman42]

No I'm not kidding. I'm sure they are great skiers. I think they generally look really stupid in those videos.

[Max_501]

Dewdman42, you are kidding, right? Skiers at that level can ski any which way they are asked to make a turn. This is the present PSIA prescription. If tomorrow they were told that a new way to demo was like PMTS turn, they would demo them from the get-go.

Ott, is this really the case? Download a few of the vids that Dewdman linked to and watch them with V1. Take a close look at some of the releases.

[kman]

No I'm not kidding. I'm sure they are great skiers. I think they generally look really stupid in those videos.

Seems rather arcane doesn't it? I thought I was in a bit of a time warp watching those vids.

[SLAVA]

they were told that a new way to demo was like PMTS turn, they would demo them from the get-go.

Ott i don't think getting high on the morning is good for you...

I?m sorry but you have to be really high on drugs or drank to say some like this

[kman]

Dewdman42, you are kidding, right? Skiers at that level can ski any which way they are asked to make a turn. This is the present PSIA prescription. If tomorrow they were told that a new way to demo was like PMTS turn, they would demo them from the get-go.

I suspect that the better ones could without much difficulty.

[jmdhuse]

You know what would be cool (and helpful, maybe)? If we could get some video of two skiers, one demonstrating TTS and one demonstrating PTMS side by side in a synchronized fashion down some blue or black terrain. That would give us a very solid foundation for analyzing the differences at each point in the turning sequences.

Does anyone know if such a video already exists or is anyone willing to take on the task of preparing something like this?

Thanks, Jon.

[Harald]

Why is everyone so surprised by the lack of functionality in PSIA skiers? I think I?ve hawked this theme for the last twelve years even when I was on the D-Team. I saw the D-Team tryouts twice right in front of me. I skied with almost every examiner in PSIA over the four years while I was on the Team and I can speak to the skiing within PSIA.

John?s post is the short version of what I explained in detail in both my Expert 1 book and Instructor manual.

If you have skiers skiing with a dysfunctional technique and they do it day to day without proper coaching, their skiing will get worst. That said, what you have to keep in mind is that Ott is demonstrating use of the back door that I described in an earlier post as the essence PSIA. When they ski poorly, when they can?t explain why their technique doesn?t create good skiing, they resort to the back door. PSIA takes no responsibility for what it does. It?s like religion, you have to believe, you have to have faith, and then you can do no wrong. Proof, science, HA, who needs that when you have faith.


PMTS does not shy away from what it represents. We stand by the facts. We teach the movements that are written, we don?t have to have escape routes because our system works and stands on its own feet.

[Ott Gangl]

Harald, don't you think that if you were still on the PSIA d-team you would have to ski just like what you see in the video? It is not recommended to demonstrate outside the sanctioned and prescribed style and technique in either PSIA or the PMTS or any of the other international schools. I haven't read your 'back door theory' so I can't comment on it.

And Slava, what do you think these people do? They demo what is currently thought to be the correct way of PSIA progession and easy to learn, It may (will) be different three years from now.. If you think that PMTS skiing is so hard to do that even high level skiers can't adopt it quickly, why bother? I think PMTS skiing is easy, and it is meant to be easy. And surely us mortals have habits that are slipping in when we don't concentrate, but by concentrating for a while, the new movement go into muscle memory.

....Ott

[tommy]

my take on this topic:

if I were looking for "a role model" for my skiing....


No doubt I'd pick HH, Diana or Rich any day asop to the skiing demoed in the vid's pointed to by Dewd...

regardless the skill level of the individuals, if the purpose of the vids is to serve as "marketing" for a particular teaching "system", then no doubt PMTS wins by huge margins...

I wouldn't want my skiing to look like the skiing on those vids...

--T



--T

[Harald]

Ott, if you read my posts over the years they say one thing, I never changed my skiing for PSIA standards. I have told this story often, as it was probably the beginning of my dimisze with PSIA and the Demo Team coaches. On one of my first days working with the coaches on low end parallel demos, they wanted me to make a gross, open stance, skidded, steered turn.

I tried to detune my normally brushed, slow, open parallel turn, but they continually denigrated me about my skiing. I finally made an exaggerated, horrible skidded, slipped, parallel turn and they cheered and applauded.

My response, which was probably the beginning of my demise was "If you had told me, you wanted me to ski like a geek, why didn't you tell me from the beginning."

Dewdman42, you are kidding, right? Skiers at that level can ski any which way they are asked to make a turn. This is the present PSIA prescription.

If you were a great skier, would you ski like crap just to ski PSIA technique, if you could ski well? That?s what Ott just said, they can ski any way they want, so why is it I never see them skiing other ways but the PSIA way.

Back to the D-Team tryouts, Dewdman, if you think you are appalled at the skiing of Sogard and company you should have seen me bite my tongue at the D-Team tryouts. And look, I have Canadian D-Team footage its no better.

I couldn?t believe the skiers they picked for the team. Ott, would you agree, skiers at the tryouts are skiing their best, skiing the best they can, it doesn?t matter whether you are PSIA or a racer when you are put under pressure you ski to survive. At the tryouts you are put under pressure in difficult terrain at Snowbird and with crazy PSIA tasks.

Ott, are you telling us that a skier is going to ski PSIA in a tight, icy shut, just to impress the judges? No, they are going to use all they have at their disposal. I saw the skiing quality at the tryouts and I compared it to the skiing of racers I coached, and the fellow competitors I raced with, in my competition years. There is no comparison.

At the time I decided to try out for the team, I was not skiing. For twenty some years I was a ski coach. Do you know what a ski coach does? He wears mountaineering boots and stands on the hill, sets courses, and if he is lucky skis with gates and drills strapped to his back.

When I decided to tryout, I had to go through my cert levels because I was not a PSIA member. I was a Level 4 Master Coach in the USSA organization. I?m not trying to boost my skiing here; I?m trying to explain how low the requirements are for PSIA top level skiing. If I can jump in and make the team in one year, after not skiing for twenty years, and I?m the oldest Dud to make the team, what does that say about standards? Not very good!

[Harald]

I know this post is going to get over to Epic and we may buckle under their inquiry, as to whether or not we drank the Kool-aid, again. Drug testing for skiers, did you drink the PMTS Kool-aid? Sorry Barry, you are going to have to stand in line for your test, the PMTS guys were here first. Tyler you are done, forever, you can leave now.

I will make this comment, not to endear me to the Epic crowd, but to make a distinction about coaching and technique. Do I think I could reverse the damage done to the good athletes whose skiing has gone bad because of PSIA? Yes, I think with some coaching these guys could ski very well. Do I think I could change the skiing of skiers who are below the demo team level in PSIA? Yes, I know I could make it much better, more function and less passive. For those that think this is a dig, I am giving credit to the individuals for their skiing potential. I am pointing out that it is the very system that they embarrass that is holding them back, not their ability.

[Ott Gangl]

I think dewdman42 said it best when he quoted the instructor:"..He also mentioned that basically he has learned to "dance the dance" in terms of displaying what PSIA examiners want to see even if he goes away and skis and teaches a way he feels is better. "

That is what was required even when I first certified with USSA in 1962, you show them what they want to see, if you call it crap, so be it, but they accept you or reject you on the premis that should be able to ski as asked.

....Ott