Flex vs. extension is banal but please be patient.

PMTS Forum

Flex vs. extension is banal but please be patient.

Postby dimitri » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:21 am

I know that this may sound very banal, but please be patient with what I want to clear up. As I understand one strong difference between TTS and PMTS is that PMTS uses only flex of old stance foot vs. TTS teaching that release can be started also by extension of the old free (inside) foot.

HH stated very strong about flex in innumerous occasions, for example
?The intent of what you are doing is the important part of how movements take effect. If you, as I explained in anther post, flex or bend by 1mm you are on the right track, if you extend by 1mm you are on the wrong track if you are a habitual push off skier.?
See: http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... sc&start=0

Recently I discover in PMTS online lessons this statement:
?In Brief
On a moderate, groomed pitch, link turns using the Phantom Move. After you release, tip the free foot toward its little-toe edge. While tipping, slowly draw the free foot upward against the stance boot. Meanwhile, keep the outside of the free foot (its little-toe edge) gently in contact with the snow. The free foot should be highest, and thus the free leg "shortest", through the bottom of the arc; at this point, you can begin to release for the next turn. As you relax your stance leg to release and your body starts to move in the direction of the next turn, extend the flexed inside leg until both legs are equally flexed and the skis are flat to the snow. Now tip the new free foot and flex the new free leg to enter the arc of the next turn.?
See:
http://www.harbskisystems.com/olk1.htm
On the next week I will be skiing in Alps and want to start practicing PM, so it is very important to me to fully understand the PM. Please somebody clarify on that apparent contradiction.
Thanks in advance,
Dimitri
dimitri
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Postby violao » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:58 am

There is no contradiction here. In second article Harald talks about gradual extension of former free leg as it becomes new stance leg, which is what happens AFTER the release. This is not being accompanied by body rising and skis unweighting. The new stance ski is fully weighted as the stance leg extends.

In the first article Harald talked about extension PRIOR to the release. This kind of release was taught in the past in order to unweight the skis prior to pivoting them into new turn - that's not PMTS. This results in skidding.

Happy skiing.
violao
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:08 am
Location: Croatia

Postby Harald » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:18 am

Image

Use this photo series to check leg length in transition and leg length in the apex of the arc, which is the last frame in the series. Notice how flexed the inside leg is in the last frame?

Now image what you have to do with your legs "in transition" to get into the apex of the next trun.
"Maximum Skiing information, Minimum BS
Harald
 
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm
Location: Dumont

Re: Flex vs. extension is banal but please be patient.

Postby dimitri » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:30 am

Thanks violao.
I see what you mean. It just seems to me that
As you relax your stance leg to release and your body starts to move in the direction of the next turn, extend the flexed inside leg until both legs are equally flexed and the skis are flat to the snow


explicitly suggests active extension in the very beginning which has to be executed together with relaxing of the stance leg, rather than passive one which inevitably occurs during the turn.
But may be it's just wording?
Further replies will be greatly appriciated
Thanks in advance,
Dimitri
dimitri
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Postby milesb » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:51 am

At advanced levels on steeper terrain, it may seem like it's simultaneous, but you still need to flex the old stance leg to release before any extending of the new stance leg happens. And yes, it's hard to get them in the right order when doing short quick turns on steeper slopes. I recommend taking video of yourself doing it so that you make sure.
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
User avatar
milesb
 
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Los Angeles

Postby dimitri » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:52 am

Thanks Harald.
I understand that one legs shortens while the other extends. I'm just asking if I have to perform this extension actively ot it is by-product of the new inside leg relaxing.
Thanks in advance,
Dimitri
dimitri
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Postby Harald » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:09 am

Hi Dimitri, You bring up an important point and clearly a need for an explaination and clarification. I think in this reference, the extension directive is meant to bring awareness to developing body stability and muscle activation for that side of the body, and for that leg to become the support side.
If some form of extension with that leg is not activated the new stance side might not be ready to accept the load of the coming turn. The idea is not to extend that leg, so as to make it longer, only extend it until you feel resistance against the snow.
"Maximum Skiing information, Minimum BS
Harald
 
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm
Location: Dumont

Postby dimitri » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:27 am

Harald, milesb, thank you again.
I understand that this extension is rather subtle and passive and if performed too agressively can result in wedged release.
Thanks in advance,
Dimitri
dimitri
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Postby lannq » Sun May 07, 2006 3:02 pm

I can guess that the pro's want to weight that new downhill ski early,while it is sill flat at transition . Thus powering into the carve. Could be very helpfull to get into hardpack ,steeps . Also I'll guess gives more rebound potental to your turns. Crisper faster developing. Perhaps one might-pull up on the big-toe of the new down hill ski to get you forward quicker , while up on the flat/beginning of this turn ? Do I have he idea?? I recently read about pulling up on the both legs (flex?) before the turn . For what purpose ? Seems like all the flex stuf comes natural from moving cm into center of next turn. Also which do you mean ; short or longer radius turns with flexing ? Gary
lannq
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am

Postby milesb » Sun May 07, 2006 3:52 pm

Lannq, I really didn't understand your last post, could you try to reword it? Harald seems to have this knack for understanding posts like yours, but I think he is away for awhile.
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
User avatar
milesb
 
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Los Angeles

Check out the Super Phantom turn

Postby John Mason » Sun May 07, 2006 8:23 pm

Check out the Super Phantom turn. In that turn (one of the two extremes taught in PMTS) the old downhill ski is released and flexed enough that all the pressure is on the LTE of the uphill ski at the end of the turn. This locks that edge and helps it become a fulcrum as the CM moves down the hill and across the skis for the new turn. That about to be new outside ski is fully pressured before the transition and engages fully as soon as it rolls to its new BTE.

The opposite extreme of this is the weighted release where the downhill ski is left pressured and actually does the carving at the top of the new turn and the new outside ski is engaged later and the turn develops. (von g. turns)

The commonality to both of these turns or any pressure mix in between is tipping to LTE and flexing (retracting) of the old downhill/outside ski at the end of the turn.
John Mason
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:52 pm
Location: Lafayette, Indiana, USA

Postby lannq » Tue May 09, 2006 6:20 am

I do not pretend to be an expert,but well studied in all the write-up by all factions on new tech.. My skiing jumped into warp drive theis last winter ,from all my new technique study (30hrs.), and visualizing from on-line instruction from, H.H., Peter Stone,John C. , Aussie technique, Lito Trajeda, and the like . Thanks all ! I'm struggling to understand when you say. " The new downhill ski is weighted BEFORE transistion . Yet you say the weighting comes after the phantom move ,after the releasing ,flexing ,and when the new downhill edge engages. How can there be both ?? I feel the later. Seems to me it all happens naturaly. All the phatom moves included. Just like running around in the back yard. Or on bikes. Your cm moves diagnal forward to center of next turn . The releasing and flexing and tipping ,edging, all come as a result of the intent to re-center cm .. Just like running or biking. Am I right? Gary
lannq
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am

Postby Max_501 » Tue May 09, 2006 7:29 am

In PMTS its reversed. The intent is to flex to release and then tip to start the turn. The result is the CM moving into the new turn.

When does weighting of the new outside ski start? In a one footed release its weighted as soon as you begin to release. In a two footed release its partially weighted as soon as you start to release. In a weighted release its not weighted until the new turn is well under way.

John was describing a Phantom Turn which uses a one footed release. So, starting from the previous turn you:

Flex and lighten (or lift the old outside leg) which releases the turn. Tip the old outside leg to the little to edge (LTE). Your hips should follow the tipping and flow across the skis. Now flex you new inside leg while you keep tipping to the LTE while extending your new outside leg.

I feel like I'm not doing a very good job of describing this...do you have the books and videos to refer to?
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Postby lannq » Wed May 10, 2006 5:58 am

I see now. I thought there might be some exotic pre-weighting of the new downhill ski , before it goes up on edge as to maybe facilitate edging into hardpack on steeps.Maybe it does? I'm primarily a GS skier on moderate terrain . I have a nice modern diagnal style. Made great srides this last year. Now I look to improve on the steeps. I do my short turns thinking rapid big toe ,little toe, both feet same time . My upper body stays straight down fall line. I must fight to stay forward . Get a little bouncy . Is the bouncy good? I think I'd like to slow it down,and arc longer,before I release. Ideas anyone? I have new Head '72's . Been skiing on Rossi (large tip) something 5's, mid waist 74's?. Gary Lannquist
lannq
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am

Postby Max_501 » Wed May 10, 2006 8:41 am

lannq wrote:I see now. I thought there might be some exotic pre-weighting of the new downhill ski , before it goes up on edge as to maybe facilitate edging into hardpack on steeps.Maybe it does? I'm primarily a GS skier on moderate terrain . I have a nice modern diagnal style. Made great srides this last year. Now I look to improve on the steeps. I do my short turns thinking rapid big toe ,little toe, both feet same time . My upper body stays straight down fall line. I must fight to stay forward . Get a little bouncy . Is the bouncy good? I think I'd like to slow it down,and arc longer,before I release. Ideas anyone? I have new Head '72's . Been skiing on Rossi (large tip) something 5's, mid waist 74's?. Gary Lannquist


Gary do you have the books? If so we could probably reference areas that cover most of your questions in detail with really good pictures.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Next

Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest