moguls

[keram]

I've posed this question on epic ski forum but hoped to get more concrete answers here. I've read the PMTS book and have to admit that bump skiing is somewhat skidded there. I ski EC and soft/fresh snow bumps are here only during spring.
I do like to carve and anytime I get in trouble happens when I don't stick with the pmts principles.
Carving issue: my biggest fear is the loss of the edge when having weight on outside ski when the entire body is supported on that ski and I hit the ice patch..
Bump skiing: what's the good way to ski places like outer limits or similar, where mogules/troughs get iced up pretty quickly. Would pure pmts work in these conditions?

[keram]

.. having said that are there pmts instructors in Killington/Mt Snow

[dewdman42]

I'm very curious to hear about the PMTS approach to bumps. I think in vid#2 he just barely starts to touch into it. From what I understand he has a new one coming out soon and perhaps that will get more into some all mountain conditions such as bumps.

personally, I don't think I've seen much so far in the PMTS courseware to cover zipper line bumps. That isn't to say that some top level PMTS guy might not jump in here and tell us how to do it. PLEASE? But if you want to ski zipper line bumps, I think you need to adapt some other non-PMTS techniques and you already got a lot of suggestions over on Epic.

But I'm listening too.. i had a major breakthrough on groomed carving using just the smallest bit of the phantom move. now I'm hooked on the feeling..can't wait to get back up there. But personally, my approach to bumps will continue to be different for now.

But I have a bigger question for you. WHY ON EARTH are you skiing difficult ice bumps other than to try to force yourself to learn them? Maybe we're just spoiled out west here, but when the bumps are icy..I find other stuff... If the bumps are spaced out enough..fine... those aren't zipper line bumps. that's a whole nother story. If they are spaced out nicely then you can definitely use PMTS to just carve your way through it and its all aboutline selection. But if you're trying to ski zipper line, pretty deep ice bumps...well...my thoughts are... don't.

B=)

[Pierre]

Why would you abandon the movement patterns of PMTS in any conditions including bumps.

The size and spacing of bumps has to do with the degree of edge for carving. What skiers fail to realize about speed control in bumps and elsewhere is speed control is not a matter of applying brakes its a matter of timining and intensity.

I love tight big bumps made of solid blue ice for two reasons. One, they offer less resistance to turning, therefore less effort and two they are a gaper free zone.

Defensive active leg steering is difficult to control and offers no edge in icy bumps. The techniques offered by PMTS are easy to control and as such are a good alternative.

Speed control can be accomplished with little edging and no attempt at defensive braking what so ever. What to slow down, slow down your feet and take longer to complete the turn. It is a very simple concept yet I find that most skiers have a hard time accepting it.

Its pure physics. Take twice as long to complete the same size turn and the average speed is halved even though your skis are accelerating throught the turn with no attempt at braking or edgeset. You do not have control over gravity and overall slope angle but you do have control over how quickly the skis enter the fall line and what line is available if you take longer to let the skis enter the fall line.

I teach series of bump clinics called "Bumps Without Brusies" that utilizes timing and intensity as the main speed control tools. The movement patterns are very PMTS like without intentional active leg steering.

Watching some ski death zone bumps with grace and speed control is all it takes to make a believer out of any skier on the value of timing and intensity for speed control.

[dewdman42]

Why would you abandon the movement patterns of PMTS in any conditions including bumps.

Well I didn't exactly say "abandon" and I certainly didn't mean to completely abandon anything. I mean to say, incorporate some other things which so far I have not seen discussed much in this forum, nor on the PMTS vids that i got (I haven't read the books yet).

But we are all waiting anxiously for a real PMTS expert to enlighten us about how to apply PMTS principles to zipper line skiing.

[SkierSynergy]

I can toss out a few comments on bumps.

First, if you want to ski the trough zipper-line, using the movements that you see competition bump skiers use, that is not PMTS technique. The movements are different and the recommended line would be different. In fact, competition bumps are artificially created for the line and technique that you see competition skiers using. With that said, here are a few comments on PMTS technique for bumps. At Mt. Hood and in S. America, I sometimes jump into the artificial bumps that are used for training and enjoy them, but it is clear that I am skiing them differently. I choose to ski them as I would real mountain bumps as encountered in all mountain skiing.

To make the connection to general skiing, let?s first think about two basic topics: rhythm of flexing/extending and tipping actions. There are more specific variations and tactical issues that can be addressed later.

In any basic turn, the release is the time when both legs are maximally flexed together and everything in the upper body is square. As the skis are put on edge, the inside foot is tipped to the LTE, the inside leg stays flexed (or increases flexion), and the stance leg extends and is stood on for balance. As tipping happens, the upper body counters in reaction to tip and face away from the direction of the turn. Let?s ignore pole plant issues for now.

For bumps this same pattern is used. In fact the bump facilitates all of these movements. The bump is your best friend. Head straight to the top of the bump. Flex both legs to absorb the bump and flatten the skis right on top of it. At this point, continue to flex new inside leg, lightening that ski. Tip the new inside ski to its LTE and carve that LTE high and hard down the other side of the bump. As this happens, the stance leg will easily extend a little further toward the trough. It extends and the skier stands on it for balance. The line then is an arced line down the side of the bump. Head to the next bump and do the same. Flex to flatten on top and tip high and hard down the other side.

The line is variable, but it tends to be carving along the far side of each bump with occasional high C transitions between the bumps when there is enough room. I can say more about variations and tactics later.

One thing that is nice with this approach is that the action of flexing to flatten (release the old turn) is the same as that which is used to absorb the bump. As the bump comes, you only have to think about flexing both legs to the top of the bump.

I usually start people going from bump to bump. Do a single lift and tip down a bump to a stop on the top of the next one in a flexed position. Then try linking two, then three, and so on.

A few extra comments.

We do not use the counter to do an unwinding pivot slip type of turn. Turning down the hill with your upper body at the beginning of the new turn does the same destructive things to your skiing in the bumps as it does in any other slopes/conditions.

In general, whether one hard carves with big angles or gently drifts down the bumps is not of big concern for me. There are effective ways to do both ? as long as the movement patterns are consistent with balance and carving. I can say more about this later if someone wants.

Hope this helps.

[SkierSynergy]

dup

[davidpjr]

I just use the Phantom tipping that PMTS teaches and that works... period. Occasionally, if warranted, I might use the superPhantom.

I think one of the most important things to do is to work the Pole Plants. Without that, you are doomed in a mogul field, especially an icy one, no matter how fast a tipper you are.

And, depending on the steepness, tightness(like a chute), I revert to a double pole plant hop turn. But, only as a last resort. I am sure that is not PMTS approved but when in a bind, you do what you have to.

I also avoid the ICY moguls / concrete moguls. I can ski them but the pounding on the body and the long term effects are just not worth it to me.

[violao]

The bump is your best friend. Head straight to the top of the bump. Flex both legs to absorb the bump and flatten the skis right on top of it. At this point, continue to flex new inside leg, lightening that ski. ..

I find that it helps to lift the tail of the new inside ski while going across the top. I think this effectively prepares it to slice down the far side of the bump. Going across bumps in such a way for the first time was this eureka moment about phantom move for me. I think the bumps really help to establish that flex-extend pattern of new free-stance foot so whenever I see (a gentle) bump on a piste I go directly towards its top. Prior to PMTS I would always try to go around them.

[john heath]

Jay,
yes, do tell us more. i find your posts are the clearest stuff on pmts.