A valuable tool

[Harald]

Jay, one of our coaches, who was with us at Big Sky, tells me that over on Epic, Chris Braisby?s ?Ski Coach? and his attempts to introduce the benefits of it were trashed by the whole crowd.

Was I surprised? No.
The Ski Coach is a valuable tool for many skiers. I recommend it to all skiers when used with proper guidance and PMTS fundamentals.

If you look at the post on Epic, you will see how blind these people are. They condemn everything without investigation. How much more does one need to see before you know that they are running scared when anything is mentioned in association with PMTS. They don?t know or investigate PMTS, they don?t know or investigate the Ski Coach. They are ignorant, yet they condemn, they get everything wrong or backwards. It?s amazing they can still survive. How?s that for a discerning ski instructor population?

[Pierre]

I don't think he was trashed as such and I do believe he will get positive results from the discussion. A few people ran up the Kool Aid charge but it was very positive overall.

[dewdman42]

I think there are a few personalities over there on Epic that unfortunately rule the roost. This is a common situation in nearly every internet forum I have ever participated in (And I have participated in quite a few in very diverse areas of interest). It ends up coming down to a few people that seem to have no life and are online every single day, dominating all the conversations. Eventually they acheive some level of respect as a "Senior Member" or whatever...at which point they can say just about anything they want and get away with it. They create such a hostile environment that even people making complete sense, can't say anything contrary to them without risking being made to look like a fool as these people I speak of debate every word that comes out of everyone's mouth. They will never back down. They will always make sure to get the last word, and are worried a lot more about saving face then getting to the truth.

This is on almost every single forum I have ever visited.

Regarding Epic..there is definitely some of that. There are a few personalities that have rock star status over there. They can't say anything wrong. And if they are confronted, they get very aggresive about defending their position of power and authority.

But...

I think there are some people lurking around on Epic that are not that way. I think the most sane people have just learned to keep their mouth shut on there. I agree Harald, I can't believe some of the things they espouse about how to ski. It actually blows my mind. But then to make it worse, they condemn everything else and try as hard as they can to keep down anyone that presents ideas contrary to their own or especially if someone presents something sensible that will make them look stupid, they will turn into a rapid dog to defend themselves.

yet, they keep posting videos of themselves and i'm like "That's the guy that was talking so big?" Wow.

Anyway, to the point, I think there are plenty of people lurking over there that will pay attenion and perhaps find out about PMTS or the ski coach or whatever. In fact, I found out about PMTS via Epic a few months ago and bought all your books and videos. So there you have it. Not everyone listens to all crap on the internet and believes it.

[ssh]

Chris did get a mixed bag, but part of that was the way he chose to approach the topic--and the fact that he was responding to a thread that seemed like a bit of a "plant". I do not know if folks intentionally stir the pot on Epic, but it seems like it at times.

I hope I'm not one who is seen as "aggressive". I ask a lot of questions. I truly want to know new stuff. But, a lot of people take the questions as taunting or threatening. I'm not sure why, but there you go...

[dewdman42]

I do want to add, however, that I still enjoy lurking on Epic and even sometimes attempting to add to dicussions there. The reason is because I like the diversity. Nothing against this forum, its very valuable information here, but its definitely all about PMTS in general. I kind of like the fact that Epic brings in all sides. Of course, that means that there will be a lot of total BS there....which I have read much of and lately its starting to turn me off. But I still like hearing what other people in the world are thinking about how to ski even if I don't agree with them.

The fact is, I don't 100% agree with any system of skiing that I have ever been exposed to, including PSIA, CSIA..and yes..even PMTS. I feel there are gems of truth to all of them and some things that just aren't sitting right with me. Fine..I take it all in....

so for me, I could not live without reading this forum and I also could not live without reading Epic.... For me I just have to keep it in perspective and remember that an awful lot of people on the internet with strong opinions don't know what they are talking about.

And no Steve, I don't perceive you as aggresive. I don't want to name any particular people. Let's just say that I think some smart ski minds have been scared away from discussions on Epic because of a few various personalities that tend to dominate and frankly I haven't been impressed with some of the so called "knowledge" I've seen spewing from their mouths. I think a lot of the guys that really know would not bother to waste their time posting there. Maybe once or twice, but not long. So to me, the value of the information there has become somewhat suspect. But still...I like to chat about skiing as much as anyone...and read all that stuff...even if I keep reading that there is no such thing as a Brushed carve B-)

[ssh]

And no Steve, I don't perceive you as aggresive. I don't want to name any particular people. Let's just say that I think some smart ski minds have been scared away from discussions on Epic because of a few various personalities that tend to dominate and frankly I haven't been impressed with some of the so called "knowledge" I've seen spewing from their mouths. I think a lot of the guys that really know would not bother to waste their time posting there. Maybe once or twice, but not long. So to me, the value of the information there has become somewhat suspect. But still...I like to chat about skiing as much as anyone...and read all that stuff...even if I keep reading that there is no such thing as a Brushed carve B-)

guilty as charged! However, I think that's just semantics.

That said, I agree 100% with what you've said here. My personal perspective is that I would like to see Epic become a place where the folks you describe are very comfortable posting there, and that "knowledge" (even if it's debatable and debated) is a very high percentage of the content and the spew is a much lower percentage. There are challenges to that, as I'm sure you know, but that is a significant part of my personal hopes for the site.

Now, about that "brushed carve" thing...

[dewdman42]

guilty as charged! However, I think that's just semantics.

Well that is part of the problem over there... Way too much wasted energy over semantics. If we all skiied together one day it would end a lot of that wasted energy.

That said, I agree 100% with what you've said here. My personal perspective is that I would like to see Epic become a place where the folks you describe are very comfortable posting there, and that "knowledge" (even if it's debatable and debated) is a very high percentage of the content and the spew is a much lower percentage. There are challenges to that, as I'm sure you know, but that is a significant part of my personal hopes for the site.

Those are good hopes.

Now, about that "brushed carve" thing...

[ssh]

guilty as charged! However, I think that's just semantics.

Well that is part of the problem over there... Way too much wasted energy over semantics. If we all skiied together one day it would end a lot of that wasted energy.

Ya gotta be careful. Semantics is "the study of meanings." Therefore, it seems that semantics are important when we're trying to figure out what someone else means. I admit to being one of the most strident offenders, since I think that words have meaning, and that if we desire to communicate, we have to agree on definitions first.

Here on the PMTS forum, that problem doesn't exist. Harald's definitions are the ones that are discussed here, and they are not open to debate. Such is not the case on EpicSki (or most other skiing sites). So, I think clarifying meaning is important. FWIW.

[dewdman42]

I agree, but many people on there are so side tracked, it seems they aren't trying to agree on how to communicate, they are rather arguing and getting nowhere because their semantics are off. Lots of wasted energy. You're right though..its hard to agree on that.....so there again..that is why Epic is somewhat suspect in its usefulness to me. I have seen so much confusion and misleading information on there its somewhat sickening actually. A few gems too, but lots of BS.

[dewdman42]

I actually don't know why I'm even saying that, because I still like to participate there and I'm sure some people must think I am full of it too... ha ha... so don't black ball me yet Steve.

[ssh]

It's all about perspective, it seems to me. One sign of maturity is a willingness and ability to see situations and concepts from multiple perspectives--especially, I think, those not held by onesself.

[dewdman42]

well perspective is one thing..but its not really accurate to say that any BS spewing from someone's mouth is some forth of truth and its just a matter of perspective. its also true that many people get so caught up in their own perspective they can't listen to someone else's and POTENTIALLY learn some new truth. BTW there are a lot of people on Epic stuck in that trap too. But that doesn't mean that all of those different perspectives are useful, good or correct information. In fact, they may very well be flawed subtly or not so subtly. Someone who knows what is up can read through the BS...but there are some terrific skiers out there that aren't even capable of that to be honest. Who knows, for all I know I might even be one of them. But from MY perspective I'm not.

[Ken]

and the fact that he was responding to a thread that seemed like a bit of a "plant".

That was my posting that started it all about The Ski Coach, and those were my honest feelings about the device. If some folks on Epic think anyone can ski well with their shoulders leaning back toward the hill, let them do it; I just hope they don't recommend that to others. Some people can use a bamboo pole across their shoulders or other gizmo for a few turns, learn the correct movements, and keep those forever. Not me...I need lots and lots of repetitions to learn something, and The Ski Coach helps my skiing.


Ken

[ssh]

Ken, fair enough. Note my words: "seemed like"... A number of folks saw it that way, whether you intended it or not.

dewdman, I buy that completely. And I agree with it. I endeavor to help with that process (and am looking at some forum features to help with it, too). I hope that I am not one who members think spews garbage or is stuck in his own perspective.

But, also, a lot of folks don't realize that many folks have been through the same discussions multiple times, and so may have lost some patience with the same points being raised. I'm not saying it's right, but it may help to explain it some.

[John Mason]

Semantics - that's actually one of the things that I've grown to really like about PMTS is the specificity of terminology. In other ski discussions a term like steering can have so many seperate meanings. The whole PMTS approach is to not teach a student a result for them to intuit to - like get your CM more foward - you are in the back seat. But, a specific movement the student can do to accomplish the goal, like pull the free foot back. That will change where your CM is as a result.

As a student I love this primary movements approach.

The frustrating thing I've found over on Epic is the strong opinions people have that demonstrate no knowledge or experience about what they are critical of.

By far the vast majority of PMTS people that post here have had extensive prior experience in non-PMTS approaches.

Even where I have been taught things very similar to PMTS - like the 2 non-PMTS race camps I went to, the concepts were often described in a 'result fashion' rather than in a primary movements fashion.

For instance the often heard phrase "you need to keep parallel shins". That's a result of natural - either foot ready to help with a recovery - balanced position for skiing. But often it's the lack of a proper release and setup at the top of the turn while keeping the new free foot back at transistion that has someone chasing their tail the rest of the turn. Harald at camps often uses the phrase, the turn was lost way back there. Way back there often means at the end of the last turn before the transition or in the line chosen for running the gates.

I enjoy hearing respectful discussions from lots of different points of view. I wish Epic could be that way. But mention HH or PMTS and usually that just brings out the crazies for some reason.

Having a clear definition of terms - Stance Foot - Free Foot - Single Most Important Movement - Counter - Counter Balance - really helps a student learn.

I think one of the most confusing things about people coming to a system like PMTS is the lack of the use of terms like steering or rotation. This is because these, when they occur in PMTS, is always a result of a more primary movement. This often leads people to think somehow that these concepts don't happen with a PMTS skier. Then people conclude that PMTS is a limited system.

The finest skiers I have seen in my short time skiing are the PMTS instructors, people that have been with PMTS for a while, and people with high end racing background. Most of the other skiers and instructors I've seen on the hill have this quasi golf cart look to them. They are over their skis and directly steering them. This is not meant as a blanket statement.

I suppose that's like any endeavor in sports. There are styles that you recognize as 'natural' looking (minimum effort for maximum result) that are just logically smart and fun to watch. This was true of my racquetball instructor as well. He was multiple time national champion and scientifically broke down what he did himself coming up realizing that what he did came naturally to him. Yet he came up with a system to get anyone willing to put in the effort to look similar to him in play. Like skiing many things in an efficient racquetball stroke are counter-intuitive. He also took a primary movements approach and didn't say - hit the ball low on the front wall, but things like, move your contact point to 6 inches above the floor.

I'm assuming the ski-coach device helps in keeping the shoulders level and thus more counter balanced at the top of a turn before momentum as picked up. The normal hold the pole level is in that mold, but doesn't help as much in the very early top part of the high C. (that tends to also equat to facing down the hill which introduces passive rotation components that can break the top of the turn carve) I'm thinking the ski coach helps in that part of the turn. But, I know nothing about it other than what I've read here. But if it helps there, that would really help this seldom taught skill.