PMTS at Torino

[Ken]

I've tried to watch the feet of the alpine ski racers and spot PMTS moves. Sometimes I'm able to spot them. I just watched the Men's Slalom, and the slo-mo of Thomas Grandi had clear release and tilt of the old stance ski at the end of a turn.

I was watching on CBC, so the Candian skiers got extra exposure. I don't know if NBC will have similar camera angles and slow motion.

The movements I saw are the same movements Harald and Rich did their best to hammer into my thick skull at the All-Mountain camp. When I get most of those movements right, I ski really well in any conditions. If I ever get all those movements right, I'll have a world-class grin. It is interesting to ski with exactly the same elements of skiing the racers use. When I get those elements right the skiing is really sweet.


Ken

[Sidney]

The weight release is very obvious in the super G and downhill.

The slow-mo of the moguls skiers showed most of them always tipping the free foot first, it's subtle but its there.

[Harrison]

also, all the fast slalom skiers have their skis closest together.

[Harald]

If you want to review the movements of world cup skiers at the Olympics, you will completely be grounded by what you are doing and learning with PMTS. For skiers who understand the sport this is just one more of the thousands examples of proof that PMTS is the right way to ski and learn about skiing. The skiing at the Olympics is also another indictment of the completely absurd approaches continuing to be used in TTS.

PMTS movements and skiing principles demonstrated by the Olympic slalom skiers:

? Narrow stance
? Lifting inside ski (part of phantom move)
? Tipping to little toe edge
? Did I say Narrowing the stance
? Bending and flexing to release
? Increasing ski angles rather than steering

What Olympic skiers did not demonstrate (which happen to be the foundation and beliefs for technique that are espoused by both the PSIA and Epic crowd)

? Stand on two feet
? Widen your stance
? Project you body toward the falline
? Steer, guide or rotor your skis into the turn
? Up unweight
? Extend your stance leg to rise and release from a turn
? Turn you body toward the falline

All or any of these will destroy any chance you have of becoming an expert skier. It is for this reason you see the convoluted skiing by the demo team members and the Weems school of ski destruction, because they try to combine all of these loser concepts into their skiing.

[pinta]

It is for this reason you see the convoluted skiing by the demo team members and the Weems school of ski destruction, because they try to combine all of these loser concepts into their skiing.

What ever happened to, If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

You should focus on what you do well rather than making negative comments about others.

Harald, I'm also curious if you would call that a wide or narrow stance in your picture above?

[Max_501]

Harald, I'm also curious if you would call that a wide or narrow stance in your picture above?

Notice how HH's knee is touching his boot. Horizontal distance is narrow but vertical distance is greater because he is pulling his free foot up to get it out of the way to get the big angles.

If you'd like more info on stance use the forum search function there is quite a bit of info on it.

[pinta]

Notice how HH's knee is touching his boot. Horizontal distance is narrow but vertical distance is greater because he is pulling his free foot up to get it out of the way to get the big angles.

I will do a search as I'm not really sure what you mean by vertical and horizontal. It seems horizontal would be the distance between the feet, but I will search.

My next question for your responce would be, if he is pulling his free foot up, why is there so much snow spray coming from the ski? I wouldn't think an unwighted ski would create that kind of spray.

Thanks.

[Max_501]

My next question for your responce would be, if he is pulling his free foot up, why is there so much snow spray coming from the ski? I wouldn't think an unwighted ski would create that kind of spray.

HH would have to give you the specifics but you can retract your leg and stil keep some amount of weighting on it. 10%...20%...30%...whatever works for the turn you happen to be making.

[Pierre]

My next question for your responce would be, if he is pulling his free foot up, why is there so much snow spray coming from the ski? I wouldn't think an unwighted ski would create that kind of spray.

Thanks.

HH does not advocate skiing all the time with feet glued together and no weight on the free foot. Lifting is learning, lightening is skiing and any amount of weight on either foot any time the skier wants is the domain of expert skiing. Its a logical progression that has become shrouded in mis-interpretation and used to beat up PMTS.

[Harald]

Vertical seperation in the turn is good skiing. A wide stance when the skis are flat, that most instructors teach, is ridiculus.


Pinta:
You are absolutely right, if you can?t say anything nice why say anything at all. That?s the attitude that got us into this mess in Iraq, New Orleans, wire tapping, selling our ports and messes in other parts of the world.

I should talk about how great all the techniques are that are incorporated in the TTS world. I should let all skiers suffer from the incompetence and inefficiencies of TTS. We should all go on with our heads buried in the sand and let poor skiing and poor lessons rule the ski teaching industry. If no one speaks up everyone will be nice and we will all get alone.

Sorry, I can do stand by and let what is happening to skiers continue without a fight. I can not be another phony ski instructor. I could have easily done that and still be at a high level in the PSIA organization, but my stomach could take the ingnorance, hypocrisy and deceit.

[trtaylor]

From his win in South Korea.

[pinta]

Vertical seperation in the turn is good skiing. A wide stance when the skis are flat, that most instructors teach, is ridiculus.

I'm glad to hear this. I am curious why you call it vertical?

Pinta:
You are absolutely right, if you can?t say anything nice why say anything at all. That?s the attitude that got us into this mess in Iraq, New Orleans, wire tapping, selling our ports and messes in other parts of the world.

I'm sorry but I don't make the connection. I would probably say being negative is what got us into the mess in Iraq. New Orleans was a natural disaster. And I didn't know the ports were ours.

I should talk about how great all the techniques are that are incorporated in the TTS world. I should let all skiers suffer from the incompetence and inefficiencies of TTS. We should all go on with our heads buried in the sand and let poor skiing and poor lessons rule the ski teaching industry. If no one speaks up everyone will be nice and we will all get alone.

Sorry, but what is TTS? Telluride Teaching System? I would think you could talk about how great pmts techniques are. I'm wondering if you didn't type this a little fast. Is psia really the enemy, or could one say that ski area management is really the problem?

Sorry, I can do stand by and let what is happening to skiers continue without a fight. I can not be another phony ski instructor. I could have easily done that and still be at a high level in the PSIA organization, but my stomach could take the ingnorance, hypocrisy and deceit.

Again with the fast typing. I'm pretty sure I understand the intent here. I applaud you for caring. I gave up a long time ago. As long as my clients are having fun and learning with me, I don't care what my co-workers are doing. After all, there next lesson may be my next best client.

[dewdman42]

pinta, this topic about narrow stance comes up all the time. the answer is simple. do not look at the distance between the skis on the snow. That is an illusion. They are on angled slopes, the camaras are shooting from funny angles, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, they are in an angulated position.

Instead of looking at the distance between their skis on the snow, instead look at the distance between their legs. The amount of white space between their legs is pretty constant. When they are laid out in a highly angulated stance with their hips practically touching the snow, their skis are actually pretty wide apart on the snow, but their legs are still seperated by a narrow slit of light (aka, a narrow stance).

When they talk about VERTICAL seperation, they are saying that when you're laid out in a G force turn with lots of angulation, or perhaps you just skiing down something really steep..then your skis simply HAVE to seperate vertically, but horizantally they are still pretty much 8-12 inches apart or so...basically a comfortable width for your legs to be. Walking width.

For example, if you were skiing on some hairy steep colouir, your uphill ski would be a foot or two vertically higher than the downhill ski. If you were out in a helicopter looking at the face of the colouir, you'd see a guy with this skis wide apart on the snow because of this vertical seperation between then. But if you had a camara looking directly down on your helmet from above, your skis would seem to be seperated horizantally by the same so called "narrow" stance of 8-12 inches.

This same thing holds true in a normal high G turn on a blue groomed run. If you're legs are angulated, relative to the slope then in order to maintain the narrow stance, your legs will seperate vertically (vertical being towards your knees). The inside leg will have to vertically seperate in order to accomodate the angulation. Again, the distance between skis on the snow is wider because of this, but if you had a camara pointing staight down from a point up in the air above the skier, you would see the skis are still in a narrow stance from that perspective.

Essentially, narrow "stance" does not refer to the distance between skis, it refers to the distance between knees. The WC guys are narrow stanced. the distance between their skis is not constant, it is changing all the time, depending on the angles they are acheiving.

Read Ron LeMaster's book if you don't believe HH, there are tons of pictures of racers from lots of angles (and on his website too) and you will start noticing that if you look down on the racers from above or from a position that lines up with their leg angles...you will see a narrow horizantal stance. Focus on that and forget about how wide the skis are on the snow.

Regarding the flame throwing... I tend to agree with you that its unfortunate sometimes that HH comes on so strong. But the simple fact of the matter is that he is right about a lot of stuff and PSIA and others are wrong about some stuff and HH has gotten so much resistance from the PSIA fraternity and the Epic BS that he has given up on trying to be nice. He is just saying it like it is...and really...his words are not innaccurate. A little more colorful than will win him any elections, but true nonetheless...

I saw a sign the other day "If you can't say anything nice, join an internet forum".

B-)

[dewdman42]

Further to this discussion, Here is that same image someone posted before showing the WC guy. I have made some lines on it. The vertical seperation is indicated by the green line down by the feet. If you had a camara looking down on the skier from the top of the long red linee, you would observe the stance is narrow.

[pinta]

For example, if you were skiing on some hairy steep colouir, your uphill ski would be a foot or two vertically higher than the downhill ski. :

Thanks Dewd, this is an image I can understand. When looking at Harold's picture on that flatter terrain in the apex of the turn, I wasn't getting the vertical.


Since the legs are connected at the top, how wide can someone get? Would it be a cowboy stance? Does anyone have any pictures demonstrating a wide stance?