Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

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Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby Jjmdane » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:41 am

I was watching Diana’s free skiing clips again and was noticing that her stance seemed marginally wider than Haralds. Certainly they have different physical characteristics but it looks to be wider. Wonder if others noticed the same thing. The slighter wider (not wide, wider) stance seems to allow more tipping later in the turn.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:13 am

Jjmdane wrote:I was watching Diana’s free skiing clips again and was noticing that her stance seemed marginally wider than Haralds. Certainly they have different physical characteristics but it looks to be wider. Wonder if others noticed the same thing.


So? Both appear perfectly functional to me... Certainly neither HH or Diana are being impeded by the stance they are skiing with.

Jjmdane wrote:The slighter wider (not wide, wider) stance seems to allow more tipping later in the turn.


Simply not true. Not a PMTS concept. Further, your understanding of stance width seems suspect. You sound like a PSIA instructor or TTS race coach trying to justify why wider stances = bigger angles. They don't. Just the opposite, in-fact.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby Max_501 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:36 am

HH wrote the following in 2004 which explains the difference in width. It has nothing to do with tipping.

Stance width is an individual preference and depending on alignment, body proportions and edging ability, it can vary.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby Jjmdane » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:53 am

I totally agree both Harald and Diana’s stances are more than functional and even though I do instruct in a PSIA program and coach racing, I absolutely do not use or subscribe to PSIA methods. I do not unequivocally advocate a wider stance in skiers, it all depends on the individual. Wide is a relative term not an absolute.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby Max_501 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:05 am

But you continue to suggest that widening the stance somehow facilitates tipping (which is clearly not a PMTS concept). Why?
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby razie » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:05 am

Jim - maybe you're thinking about the vertical separation that occurs as the angles increase? That's not a wider stance, the feet are still "close" together, that is vertical separation between boots and I don't suppose it helps tipping any more than lifting the inside foot in a phantom helps tipping (by flexing the inside knee, lightening the foot and dorsiflexion).
Last edited by razie on Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:33 am

razie wrote:Jim - maybe you're thinking about the vertical separation that occurs as the angles increase? That's not a wider stance, the feet are still "close" together, that is vertical separation between boots and I don't suppose it helps tipping any more than lifting the inside foot in a phantom helps tipping (by flexing the inside knee, lightening the foot and dorsiflexion).


Aren't you currently on the too-wide-stance naughty list? :mrgreen:
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby razie » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:42 am

HeluvaSkier wrote:
Aren't you currently on the too-wide-stance naughty list? :mrgreen:


...yeah, burned the coals already.... :oops:
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby ErikCO » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:30 pm

Jjmdane wrote:The slighter wider (not wide, wider) stance seems to allow more tipping later in the turn.


Two totally different issues, as Max and Helluva have pointed out. One other issue I would like to bring up, however. Over the past ~5 years Harald has had a knee and a hip replaced and a lot of his videos have been showing him and his recovery/rehab from those with very nice speed controlled brushed turns. The latest videos of Diana have had her doing much more high energy race-style SL turns. A brushed turn on a steep blue or black doesn't need as much tipping as a fully carved turn in order to keep speed control. I'm sure Harald could tip more if he needed to, but for the speed he is going and the turns he is performing he doesn't need to.

In summary, they are both using appropriate amounts of tipping for the particular turns they are performing and the differences in amount of tipping are a result of the two different styles of turns being demonstrated. They have nothing to do with stance width.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:12 pm

HH wrote the following in 2004 which explains the difference in width. It has nothing to do with tipping.

Stance width is an individual preference and depending on alignment, body proportions and edging ability, it can vary.


I (HH) will add "flexibility" to this original statement, because it is a component of angle dvelopment.


As usual, Max501 finds the statement that debunks silly comments about stance width. The bias about stance width is totally PSIA and USSA foolishness and ignorance as usual. What people don't see here, "again" is, as i pointed out in Expert Book 2. "Verticle Separation" versus horizontal. In my Essentials of Skiing book, I explained for the first time to the ski world the concept of Verticle separation which had neve before been differentiated from a wide stance which PSIA and USSA advocate and which is also usually an adaption need at best for some skiers. In almost everycase a skier who needs to ski wide is poorly aligned. PSIA doesn't understand alignment so instead they teach adaptive movements for one case or type of bad alignment to every skier. This is an axample again of how primitive PSIA understanding of skiing is.

Diana's stance is narrow in every respect until she drops into the low hip to the snow, when she has to bend the inside knee to an extreme angle.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:14 pm

Helluva Skier also adds exactly the statement to the point.


Simply not true. Not a PMTS concept. Further, your understanding of stance width seems suspect. You sound like a PSIA instructor or TTS race coach trying to justify why wider stances = bigger angles. They don't. Just the opposite, in fact.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:17 pm

Adding to the poor understanding of stance width, wide stance skiers like most of the PSIA demo team's skiing is nonfunctional. Same for the majority of the other National system skiers. I thought we had buried this topic years ago!????
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:31 pm

Two totally different issues, as Max and Helluva have pointed out. One other issue I would like to bring up, however. Over the past ~5 years Harald has had a knee and a hip replaced and a lot of his videos have been showing him and his recovery/rehab from those with very nice speed controlled brushed turns. The latest videos of Diana have had her doing much more high energy race-style SL turns. A brushed turn on a steep blue or black doesn't need as much tipping as a fully carved turn in order to keep speed control. I'm sure Harald could tip more if he needed to, but for the speed, he is going and the turns he is performing he doesn't need to.


ErikCO:
Thank you for pointing this out. The days for me to load up high energy, hip on the snow turns, are limited. I'll do that from time to time on days I feel good. I will get some video this season of that kind of turn when my hip is totally in place.

However, A good series of brushed carved turns is more technically demanding then edge lock carves. And if you watch Reilly type turns they are fun, but you can't ski like that all day long. Not even Reilly can not ski like that all day long. His hip on the snow high energy skiing has limits and it is only available to a few skiers in the world. I used to still do it in my early sixties late 50s but less so now because it takes lots of flexibility and it is hard on the hips and back. Reilly has had to have hip surgery this summer at 30 and is still skiing at only 70% right now. His videos are exhibition skiing, not everyday stuff even for him. No one can ski like that all day day after day, even if you could achieve that kind of skiing.

My intend with my recent videos is to show at moderate speed all the movements encompassed by a compete use of PMTS movements. As many here know those movements are the foundation of the bulletproof turn.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:07 pm

https://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2019/12/compare-stance-width.html

All of my photos in this Blog POST are after knee and hip replacements.

I don't understand the need for this topic???? It has no bearing on how "YOU" can or can not build your own turns. The difference between Diana and my functional biomechanics and body proportions is huge. Plus she is a female with very different hip proportions and our age is 20 years apart. Also, I'm skiing a 15-meter radius ski in 170cm and she is on a 12-meter ski at 165cm length. No point in going any further.


Also, if you watch enough of our skiing, my stance if often wider than Diana's, this is all situational. It's not technique or intent.
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Re: Stance width difference between Harald and Diana

Postby Roundturns » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:24 pm

I was waiting for the difference in male and female hip anatomy to be mentioned as contributing to stance width.
Would appear to be a contributing factor.
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