Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom move?

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Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom move?

Postby Louis » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:16 am

Hello,

I am rereading book 1 at the moment.
On page 185 it says in powder you should press the legs together at all times and simultaneously perform the phantom move. How does that work? I mean normally Tipping creates an O Frame, so how can I tip with legs pressed together?

Thanks for helping me clear this up :)
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby jbotti » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:44 am

An O frame occurs when we maintain balance on the LTE of the old free foot and simultaneously tip the new free foot to its LTE. This can be done with our stance very tight, where we have our ankles in contact with each other or with a slightly wider stance (which will allow for bigger angles when carving on hard snow). If we do create an O frame with our skis together our ankles will lose contact during the O frame (which will not last very long) but our skis will still be in a very tight stance. Keeping the feet/skis together in powder is very beneficial but it does not mean that we can't make all the other correct movements as well.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby Erik » Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:06 am

It might be also helpful to reread the Powder chapter of Expert Skier2, which reinforces the need to pull the feet together and keep the skis from diverging by keeping them at the same edge angle. HH also refers back to the ball control exercise in ACBAES2 as an exercise of multiple movements required for success in powder (not just the adduction part).

In the photos in ABCAES 1, you will see that HH has no lateral separation of the knees, and the skis are tipped to the same angle in every frame. If you lead with inside foot tipping, and quickly match with the outside ski tipping, then any O-frame action will not be visible except to the expert eye or the slow motion replay.
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby noobSkier » Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:33 pm

you can still achieve an o-frame while keeping the ankles close together, in fact this is the recommended way to do it.

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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby ToddW » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:44 pm

Louis,

You have to read Harald’s descriptions very literally. Press the legs towards each other means press one entire leg towards the other to disallow them from drifting apart. Think pulling / pressing feet together with the consequence of the entire legs coming together. Thinking feet first is more likely to activate the correct muscles.

With your legs next to each other, it’s perfectly possible to tip the inside foot and achieve a O-frame between two side by side legs.

Yes, the o-frame is a small gap in one region between the legs, but the instructions weren’t to place the legs together but to press (and keep on pressing) the legs together ... an ongoing action not a final state.

Practice this standing in boots on a slight incline at home. If you can’t do it, you’re probably using the wrong muscles or recruiting extra unnecessary muscles in your tipping. Except when deliberately exaggerating for drills, the o-frame won’t get too large because the stance leg will naturally tip to follow the inside leg’s tipping.

Continue pressing the legs together throughout the turn and in the subsequent release. If the skis insist on coming apart,press together harder and lighten your inside foot (difficulty doing that would likely indicate a need for the essential called counterbalance.)
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby Louis » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:04 am

Ok, I was confused by the part where it says your knees should rub against each other.
So if I focus on pressing the feet together and do not worry so much about the rest of the leg I should be fine..?
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:55 pm

You don't have to exclude any of the interpretations. This isn't PSIA where if you don't use their way it's wrong. You can try all the variations and see what works best. Is it the feet press together or is it the heels pressed together. If you are working on tipping move toward the little toe edge "First" with the releasing ski, tipping while keeping the knees pressed together makes everything tip at the same time, that's fine. Figure out what works best for you, but follow the visual out comes of good skiing movement and use the correct order which is clearly explained in my Book.
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby h.harb » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:33 pm

On this topic I recently saw a You Tube video that was telling how to get rid of your A Frame by getting your feet apart and not tipping your outside ski. Wow, there is a video to stay away from.
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Re: Pressing knees an ankles together vs O Frame+ Phantom m

Postby Louis » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:02 am

Yep, that does not sound right.
The phantom move did wonders for my skiing, I am still amazed by how much I improved even though I am self taught, definitely not going back haha.
Thank you Harald for being so involved in this forum. It is a great companion to your books.
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