Higher Angles...

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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby skijim13 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:44 am

Now I need about 10 more camps to get to those angles. Need to run a camp just for high level carving.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby skiffie » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:55 pm

SkiMoose wrote:Okay, Here's a question. As suggested by HeluvaSkier a few weeks ago, I have been trying to push it a little bit with speed and pitch lately, and I've come across an interesting problem. As soon as I try carving slalom type turns on a blue pitch, the forces and speeds seem so high they become almost unmanageable. I feel like I am fighting for CA and free foot pull back so hard that I am going to pass out, all while thinking I'm gonna die because the speeds are so high. Going on the Idea that PMTS is simple and efficient, my intuition tells me I am doing something wrong. I don't feel like my legs are doing much work, and it's all coming from the hips and upper body, which is making things really physically exhausting. Am I just not strong enough? My turns feel super easy up to a steep green pitch, but things change drastically from there. Should this be the case? I've been watching a lot of Reilly McGlashan's skiing lately, and he seems to be able to get hip to the snow angles with barely any speed or effort. Is this just an example of a great skier making hard things look effortless, or am I doing something vastly wrong? Am I getting too caught up in the quest for high angles by even asking this? These are the questions...


I am not sure if I have the same exact problem as you, but I have trouble tipping to high angles. Which is to say the advice is 'tip more', but I can't tip more, i.e. my foot just sort of gets stuck at a medium angle and won't tip further. So I end up picking up speed and making loooooooong wiiiiiiiiiiide turns across the hill just to get a bit of speed control, but not nearly enough because I end up going really fast even on greens. So I can sympathize a bit!!
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:45 am

tigernbr wrote:Is the second vid the famous helluvarelease?


Yes it is.

noobSkier wrote:Holy....helluva, were you injured?


I wasn't, but I was very, very lucky.

ErikCO wrote:I'm guessing this is part of the reason Helluvaskier wears a back brace!


This wasn't the catalyst for wearing the spine protector, but the final catalyst was a similar (and worse) high side involving much bigger trees two seasons later.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:13 am

SkiMoose wrote:Okay, Here's a question. As suggested by HeluvaSkier a few weeks ago, I have been trying to push it a little bit with speed and pitch lately, and I've come across an interesting problem. As soon as I try carving slalom type turns on a blue pitch, the forces and speeds seem so high they become almost unmanageable. I feel like I am fighting for CA and free foot pull back so hard that I am going to pass out, all while thinking I'm gonna die because the speeds are so high.


Carving steep pitches requires ownership of all of the Essentials. It requires the proper timing and range of motion for each movement. This is exactly the reason I suggested you do this. It is the perfect way to exploit your weaknesses. Get video. It should be easy to see where your skiing breaks down when you're under a bit of stress. This is a good way to find your next SMIM. As you work through the process though, understand that angles are an outcome of turn shape, ski performance and execution of the Essentials... Big angles are not a target.

SkiMoose wrote:Going on the Idea that PMTS is simple and efficient, my intuition tells me I am doing something wrong. I don't feel like my legs are doing much work, and it's all coming from the hips and upper body, which is making things really physically exhausting. Am I just not strong enough? My turns feel super easy up to a steep green pitch, but things change drastically from there. Should this be the case?


PMTS is efficient (in that we can generate very good ski performance with less muscular effort than TTS), however when ramping up speed, tightening turns, and pulling big angles (especially on hard snow), the effort required ramps up significantly. Skiing is an athletic endeavor... especially expert skiing. If you aren't breathing hard after a run of SL turns you're not making SL turns. The load on the body is significantly more than puttering around on a green trail. Every turn your stance leg is taking an immense load, you're flexing out of that load to send the momentum in the right direction, all while using your core muscles to keep the ski properly engaged and slicing. It takes a lot of effort and strength to ski like the skiers you most admire. Reilly, for example is VERY fit. Just to be able to ski like I do, I keep a regular, very serious gym routine, throughout ski season so that skiing like I do takes 'less' of a load on my body. My current squat is at 255 lbs, dead lift is 315 lbs... I am about the same size as Reilly and 145 lbs.

SkiMoose wrote:I've been watching a lot of Reilly McGlashan's skiing lately, and he seems to be able to get hip to the snow angles with barely any speed or effort. Is this just an example of a great skier making hard things look effortless, or am I doing something vastly wrong? Am I getting too caught up in the quest for high angles by even asking this? These are the questions...


This comes down to the ski and snow combination as Harald pointed out... as well as simply having done it before. On the right snow I can put my hip down at any time, but it isn't always functional. Flashy angles for a camera are cool, but often the angles and radius that demo skiers are showing don't quite add up. For example, on a 13m ski, how does one put their hip on the snow while carving a turn much wider than a SL arc? Ski choice, snow grip/consistency as well as how much CA and CB are being used to maintain pressure on a slicing ski all play a huge role in what you see done for the camera.

Here is my skiing the same pitch as HH several years ago. The snow at the time was very soft. I actually used a 77mm wide 180cm ski with no metal and a VERY soft flex... Radius is about 17.5m. If I tried to ski that run on an SL ski that day, I would have eaten it very badly.

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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby SkiMoose » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:07 pm

Thanks for the great response Heluva. I do have a video somewhere, and I can post it over on the MA forum, when I find it. I definitely know that angles are the end result, and won't be achieved properly without mastery of the essentials. It's also cool of you to include actual lifting numbers, as It gives me a much better idea of how strong strong is. As soon as I'm back on snow I'll play with different skis. Between you and HH it's become clear that skiing the same 13m slalom in all conditions from ice to near powder is not necessarily the best thing. Keep up the great skiing, I always love to see it!
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:46 am

SkiMoose wrote:It's also cool of you to include actual lifting numbers, as It gives me a much better idea of how strong strong is.


Be careful about using those as a benchmark. At your age general fitness and core strength are more important than the strength to power lift. Based on some of the videos I've seen on your YouTube channel, you're doing a lot of the right stuff. Keep working at it and gradually build the necessary muscle... don't try to move too fast. That is how injuries happen.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby SkiMoose » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Noted. Thank you! :D
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby jbotti » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:32 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote: At your age general fitness and core strength are more important than the strength to power lift.


I think this is pretty much true at any age. HH is pushing 70 and many can out power-lift by 100's of lbs yet he continues to ski at a ridiculously high level. On the world cup at times brute strength accounts for something. Not sure it means much away from very high levels of racing.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:41 pm

jbotti wrote:
HeluvaSkier wrote:HH is pushing 70 and many can out power-lift by 100's of lbs yet he continues to ski at a ridiculously high level.


Given all his climbing and training like a professional athlete year-round for decades, I would wager he's much stronger than his frame lets on--especially the core.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby ErikCO » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:31 pm

Umm, yeah. Anyone who can climb 11c and above is amazing. Doing it in your 60s in unreal!
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby skijim13 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:00 am

I agree body weight does not tell much about a persons core strength. I have been working out since I was 16. I only weight 163 lbs but can lift and leg press more than others with 100 lbs. I can hack leg press over 500 lbs. I do not use high weights in squats due to the strain it puts on the back and instead use a lower weight and concentrate on flexing down with the weight. I can use 250 lb on the seated calf raise machine. I fun it funny when people are out of shape and 100 lb overweight and think they are high level skiers. Brian in our ski club that gets out of breath walking and is about 125 lb overweight passed his Level III certification and is not bragging he is skiing as true expert. He is so overweight I think more of a bulldozer coming down the mountain when I see him skiing.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby noobSkier » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:53 am

Heres some food for thought about weight training (particularly training heavy). Although the idea of becoming "muscle bound" is a myth, heavy weight training increases resting muscular tension. This is not ideal for sports requiring high levels of very fine motor control and quickness. In sports that require both strength AND finesse, heavy weight training is often immediately followed by an explosive movement in the same ROM to mitigate residual tension. I'll have to find the exact reference, I think its from "Supertraining" By Yuri Verkhoshansky (Author), Mel Siff (Author).
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:52 pm

Hey thanks, guys. I do train with weights and I ride uphill and run uphill 3 times a week. I do eat well so I don't have trouble keeping bad weight off. I have to stay in shape to climb hard. Last summer I climbed 5-12b and I have my sights set on a 5-12c project. I still have a few remaining cruxes in that climb to master it. I know I'll get it this summer. That only leaves me one letter grade to 5-13 my ultimate goal. The 5-13 grade is getting close to the upper levels, and few have done this at 70 years old, which I'll be in a few short months.

My skiing goals are to maintain as high a level as possible. I know I can't ever do what I used to do on skis even 10 years ago at 60 years old. The limitations aren't strength, they are flexibility. The hips, the back, and knees get stiffer and creakier as you age. I have good days and not so good, but you make the best of what you have on any given day. If you stop pushing yourself, stop setting goals you deteriorate very quickly, so you push on. I did have two days in the last two weeks where I felt everything was right. Even on hard ice, I was able to get quick edge changes, strong power rebounds, and high angles. I know in my head I can still do everything, it's still there and on some days when my body feels right and cooperates, you will see me out there ripping.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby Darren » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:57 pm

Was listening to a 77 year old a few weeks back on financial survival network that had stem cells injected into his blood it made him feel about 30 yrs younger his gray hair started growing dark again, got rid of age spots, arthritis cleared up, his bad knee became better, lowered his colesterol & his weight went down. I do not know a lot about it i.e., side effects though searching the internet there are some amazing results being reported.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby Ken » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:43 pm

As soon as I try carving slalom type turns on a blue pitch, the forces and speeds seem so high they become almost unmanageable.

Here's my guess...Are you making the arc tight enough for speed control? Making the angles early enough and great enough in the upper 1/3rd of the arc, the high-c, to get the tighter radius that will control your speed?

About stem cells...there's a lot of scam out there. Shields up. I had successful stem cell injections into my knees in 2017 which had kneecap bone against femur bone (right) and deteriorated meniscus (left). The M.D. who did it only uses it into large joints (too viscous for the fine needle for small joints), not spines nor blood. He drew my bone marrow from the hip bone, centrifuged that for the stem cells, drew fat tissue, centrifuged the stem cells from that, drew blood and centrifuged for platelet rich plasma. The three ingredients were injected into the knee, about 20 cc into each knee. There was trauma from the size of the injection. Recovery took a few months. The result is great. I'm moving better now than when I used the strong anti-inflammatories, meloxicam or Celebrex (to which I found I was allergic). I'm not a candidate for a complete knee replacement. Dr. Mark Wagner in Seattle told me that stem cells from someone else have been treated to prevent rejection or infection which kills the stem cells. Some growth factors remain which can provide multi-month relief. (The back story--we had husband & wife surgeons in my town, he was an orthopod, she was a general surgeon. She told him about the M.D., Wagner. I think she wanted him to do it for his own bad knees. He told me. I was his lab test rat. Anyway, it worked, and I'm grateful.) I don't feel 30 years younger. My hair, what remains, is still gray. Age spots remain. The arthritis that improved is in the knees that were injected. Weight and cholesterol stay the same. I haven't won the lottery nor been hit on by a beautiful gal who owns a liquor store. What did I do wrong?
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