One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Max_501 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:14 pm

Bun-chan wrote:Just to add: No one knows me in this forum, but I thought I should talk about my experiences since some seem to have a wrong idea about me. Unlike some seem to suggest, I am not a kind of person trying to over-analyze things only in his head without actually doing anyting.


Reread your third post and ask yourself why readers might consider that to be over analyzing, especially after your original question had already be answered.

I wrote this back in 2011:

Max_501 wrote:Learning PMTS can be very simple if you follow the progression HH has given us. Book 1, Book 2, then Essentials. No need to over analyze or question the steps that HH has laid out in the books and on this forum because they simply work. Nike has a slogon "Just Do It" and that applies here. Just Do It [PMTS] and you will be on the road to expert skiing.

Historically this forum has been used as a distance learning system to supplement the PMTS books, DVDs, and camps.

If you are learning PMTS from a distance then its very helpful to read the books and watch the videos, starting with Expert Skier 1.

And if you are attempting to teach others I'd suggest adding the Instructor Manual to your collection

Read this post by Harald Harb written in 2004 - Book Learning

Nearly every question I can think of has already been asked and answered on this forum. The best way to search the forum is to use Google. Here is an example that you can type into the google search box to find informaing on counteracting movements here.

"counteracting" site:http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum

or

"counter acting" site:http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum

Using Google focused on searching the PMTS forum yields a wealth of information!


Here is an example of searching the forum to find an answer to the original question. Geoff wrote this last year:

geoffda wrote:If you relax the stance foot, and bend or flex the stance leg while simultaneously inverting the stance foot to flatten the stance ski at the end of the turn, you will create a release. How you manage the transfer of balance to what will become the new stance foot determines whether you get a one footed, two footed, or weighted release.

If you immediately transfer all weight and balance to the little toe edge of the new stance foot (which is best learned by lifting the old stance foot), then you will have achieved a one footed release. You are correct in noting that this is the Super Phantom. Being able to ski with the Super Phantom is the defining characteristic of PMTS Blue level skiers as it is a necessary prerequisite for high level skiing.

If, instead of lifting the old stance foot, you keep some weight on it, while shifting balance to the new stance foot, then you will have achieved a two-footed release. Keep in mind a few things. First, there is still a moment of *balance* on the little toe edge of the new stance ski. Even though it isn't fully weighted, such a moment is necessary to provide the platform by which the old stance foot can be tipped. Without that moment of balance, the new stance foot may roll over first and you will end up with a brief wedge or stem entry, which is not ideal. Additionally, the tipping of the old stance foot (new free foot) must be active and must occur before the hips move into the new turn.

Finally, it is also possible to aggressively flex the old stance leg and tip it without having transferred any balance to the new stance leg. The turn can be initiated entirely on what will be the new free foot and the balance transfer and engagement of the new outside ski can be deferred until the new turn has already started. This is known as a weighted release.

So if you have been following along, difference between the releases is just a function of how much of a balance transfer occurs at the moment of release. You can have complete transfer (one-footed release), partial transfer (two-footed release), or no transfer (weighted-release). Which one you should use is generally instinctive and it depends on terrain and conditions. For example, two footed releases tend to work better in softer, deeper snow, when you need to have a two-ski platform underneath you to float. One footed releases may be more desirable when it is icy or on steeper terrain. Weighted releases often happen in bumps, or on the race course--often as a result of ending up in an unexpected body position. Being able to use any kind of release will make you a better skier.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:48 pm

I don't understand or didn't notice where people here were harsh in their responses to your posts or comments. This is one of the most civil threads and discussions I've read. Even if this same discussion has been going on for decades, people have been very patient.

I attribute most of the confusion around this topic, to lack of on snow awareness. Since this has been going on for decades. I have experienced those skiers who posted the same questions as on this thread, come to a camp. In the first hour at camp, they saw why they were confused. And that realization came about because they were using the movements under and with PMTS coaching, supervision, corrections, and feedback.

One of the most quoted comments that our Harb campers make is "The books and videos are great, but I can really feel and get what you mean, at a much higher level, in a complete way when you show me, tell me and have me perform the movements correctly."

Right after that statement they say, "Even if I can't make the movements yet, I totally know what to do." I have seen and heard this countless times. Skiers overestimate what they are doing until they are told and shown, taken through the steps, and achieved an experience. Experiential learning is the most powerful way to achieve.

I know of only a handful who have taken all of our printed and digital information and come out with the end result that those who have been trained on snow with us have achieved. Not even Max501 was able to do it totally by himself, although he is one of the closest and has come the furthest by self-training PMTS movements, to ski at a very high level. Helluvaskier has also done it mostly on his own with my coaching over the internet, with video.

How many skiers have come to camp thinking they are making movements correctly after reading and watching our materials, almost all. How many are actually doing the movements the way they are written and demonstrated in the videos, less than 10%. That is why we ask people to post a video of themselves here. It eliminates much of the confusion and long threads that are based on the misconceptions of their own self evaluation. Their own misconception of their on-snow movement feedback is most often the cause and the source of their confusion. They are not doing what they think they are doing; therefore they keep asking here on the forum, "should I do a super phantom or a Phantom Move and what is the difference?"

As I have answered many times before, if you are making a release with the Phantom Move correctly; you don't need the Super Phantom. If you don't know how to transfer your balance to the LTE while releasing, you need to learn the Super Phantom. Now that is pretty darn simple and straightforward. Any other answer is not PMTS skiing. In other words, self-evaluation, self-judgment, and "feeling" are the worst ways to evaluate your skiing and performance.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby tigernbr » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:58 pm

I cannot speak highly enough of Harald, Diana and the rest of the team when it comes to on snow instruction. Attending last season’s green/blue camp was an awesome learning experience. I joked at camp that in my bedroom, I was the world’s best skier on my slantboard. Being on snow is another beast altogether but you really get a sense of what Harald is talking about in the books. I am attending the blue/dark blue camp this December and can’t wait. I highly recommend getting your boots fitted at HSS and attending a camp.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:00 pm

Thank you "tigernbr," exactly to my points in the previous post.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:06 pm

Max is absolutely right.

In this post:
So, let's say TFR = R+T+E ...........1)

In OFR, on the other hand, the move starts from the LTE of the uphill ski. So, in that exercise segment, OFR is "R"elease and "E"ngage, and "T"ransfer is not included since the exercise assumes that it had already happened. In other words, OFR only has two elements in the exercise.

So, let's say OFR = R+E ..........2)

Then, Harold introduces Super Phantom (SP). It starts with traversing. Then, I see "T"ransfer of Balance (lifting the stance ski to balance on the LTE of the uphill ski); "R"elease; and "E"ngage.

So, let's say SP = T+R+E .........3)


It's wrong and the order that you wrote it is wrong, so no wonder you are confused. This is not how it's written and it's not how it's done in PMTS. You accuse others of being harsh, yet you aren't following the PMTS movement system correctly. It's release, transfer and engage. And there is no place to leave one of these three steps out. You may not be trying to do it on purpose, however, you are doing exactly what I said in my first post, you are re-writing my PMTS techniques. And you are doing it by not reading what is written, "correctly"; therefore making your own interpretation happen here. And that is why you are being called on it.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Bun-chan » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:13 pm

If something was stated incorrectly, then a simple correction would suffice. If I had been trying to re-write PMTS, I wouldn't have asked the simple yes or no question in the first place. You may want to think about why no one was able to respond with clear yes or no right away.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby ToddW » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:39 pm

You may want to think about why no one was able to respond with clear yes or no right


If you re-read the first response to your initial post, 501 answered it then.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Bun-chan » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:05 pm

Not to me. While I appreciate Max_501's response, I needed further clarification. That is why I rephrased my question, but the responses I received after that got more complicated. Why? I don't know. Only answer I can think of is that no one really knows how to answer clearly to a simple question. In any case, I am done with this thread. I am disappointed with the fact that this forum is not really a forum. It is a place where the insiders attack, ridicule, and insult the people who are inspired by PMTS and seeking help. Very sad.

The PMTS manual talks about how to properly interact with students. But what I see in this forum is clearly be inconsistent with what PMTS preaches. Again, no need to respond.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:59 pm

It doesn't help that your response listed numerous self-designed ideas of how releases happen and that long complicated post which was designed with abbreviated letters, skipping words incorrectly took over the point of your post and any question you may have had. There is no, yes/no, way to answer something that is stated as confusingly as your question was presented.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:22 pm

There is no question asked here, these are your interpretations of PMTS transitions and they are not correct. No one asked for a different version of PMTS to be posted??????

So my answer, in one word, for this post is: "NO" not correct. And if you continue along these lines of thinking, you will annoy everyone here and while doing so, stay confused.


In OFR, on the other hand, the move starts from the LTE of the uphill ski. So, in that exercise segment, OFR is "R"elease and "E"ngage, and "T"ransfer is not included since the exercise assumes that it had already happened. In other words, OFR only has two elements in the exercise.

So, let's say OFR = R+E ..........2)

Then, Harold introduces Super Phantom (SP). It starts with traversing. Then, I see "T"ransfer of Balance (lifting the stance ski to balance on the LTE of the uphill ski); "R"elease; and "E"ngage.

So, let's say SP = T+R+E .........3)

Therefore, from 2) and 3),

SP = T + OFR. In other words, SP is "T"ransfer (of Balance) and OFR. So, I think this is the answer to my own question.

Let me dig a little further. In the video, Harold then introduces Weighted Release (WR). I see "R"elease; "E"ngage; and "Transfer" in this order.

So, let's say WR = R+E+T ........4)

From 3), a) and 4), I can now see three different "T"ransfer timings:

SP = T+R+E (at the beginning)
TFR = R+T+E (in the middle)
WR = R+E+T (at the end)

Then, I wondered what Phantom Move is. Is Phantom Move = E? It's not about "T"ransfer or "R"elease, so it's just "E"ngage? If I replace "E" with Phantom in any of the three above, it seems to make sense.

Any comments, corrections, confirmations, etc. would be appreciated.


You didn't ask for a yes/no answer. And you may not even be doing what you are writing when you are on snow. Each situation and each release is skier specific. In a group of 6 skiers there may well be six different corrections one for each skier. The coach picks the specific movement and has the skier work on what is missing for that skier.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:35 pm

The way you are posting, the length of the posts and the confusion in them; leads me to believe your motivation is to be right! Great, I finally figured it out, I love to fill people's motivation. You are right, keep doing what you want to do.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby noobSkier » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:32 pm

Bun-chan wrote:Not to me. While I appreciate Max_501's response, I needed further clarification. That is why I rephrased my question, but the responses I received after that got more complicated. Why? I don't know. Only answer I can think of is that no one really knows how to answer clearly to a simple question. In any case, I am done with this thread. I am disappointed with the fact that this forum is not really a forum. It is a place where the insiders attack, ridicule, and insult the people who are inspired by PMTS and seeking help. Very sad.

The PMTS manual talks about how to properly interact with students. But what I see in this forum is clearly be inconsistent with what PMTS preaches. Again, no need to respond.


You are entitled beyond belief. If you are the one asking the question, you don't get to choose how you get answered. Its not like the PMTS coaches have a conference before every question to craft the perfect response. People are committing THEIR free time to help YOUR skiing for FREE....what more do you want? As someone who has benefited greatly from the advice on this forum, I want to apologize on your behalf to those on this thread who gave you the time of day.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Robert0325 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:33 am

It’s a shame this thread has gone the way it has because the original question was an interesting one, and some of the replies, particularly JBotti’s, clarified some points – well, for me anyway.
So a further questions I’d like to risk asking is why it is so important to lead with tipping of the inside foot. I get that it’s important to tip the inside leg but why is it that everything should start from the inside foot?
Don’t get me wrong guys, I’m not disputing it’s importance, it’s just after 6 years of studying and practicing PMTS if a friend asked me why do you lead the tipping with the inside foot I don’t think I could give a convincing reason. Whereas if he asked me about why we lift the inside foot then I think I could answer that question reasonably well.

If one of the mods wants me to asks this question in a new thread or delete it I'm fine with that
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby jbotti » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:38 am

If you don't tip the LTE first the BTE of the other ski will engage and you will have a wedge/stem. This is the whole point of the phantom/super phantom move.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:28 am

John is right on the money. The LTE first topic has been covered many times on the forum and there is a chapter in Book 2 about the myth of the simultaneous edge change.

Here's an old post from 2004:

SkierSynergy wrote:I hope Sue doesn?t mind me commenting on this. Sue is correct that "skiing with the feet" and "LTE first" are two different things. However, if one considers the physiology and kinesiology involved, true PARALLEL skiing with the feet DOES imply leading with the little toe edge first. Consider the point of release into a new turn. The upper leg of the new stance ski will rotate inwardly much easier and to a greater extent than the new free-foot leg can rotate outwardly toward the little toe edge.

In practical terms, this will mean that if you concentrate on moving the edge simultaneously with both feet. The new stance ski leg will heavily tend to overreach and overpower the new free-foot leg. What results is a wedge entry in which the new stance-foot reaches an edge before the old stance ski has released. Wedge entries ? even if very slight are qualitatively different then true parallel skiing. We are now down an entirely different causal chain of events and a whole ?nother? set of negative consequences. There are lots of negative consequences anyone could pick to talk about. I will choose an especially bad one.

If one tends to get onto the new stance-ski edge first, there will be the tendency to move the stance wider because the new stance knee will run into, and get blocked by, the new free-foot knee. Most people accommodate this problem by moving into a wider stance ? either all the time or just at entry. Now we have a real negative cycle: the wider stance encourages an emphasis on the stance ski rolling first and the faster rolling of the new stance ski encourages a wider stance.

Ahhhhhhh!!!! How do we get out of this negative loop? Answer: don?t get it started. Break the loop by starting with the new free-foot inverting toward the little toe edge FIRST.

I have noted that one thing that distinguishes PMTS from other models of skiing is its emphasis on proper SEQUENCING of movements rather than proper TIMING of maneuvers. This is a good example of the emphasis on sequence. It seems small, but it?s all the difference.

The concentration should be on a proper sequence of movements starting with actively inverting the foot toward the little toe edge FIRST and then letting the stance leg passively match the angle of the new free foot. If you take into consideration the physiology and kinesiology involved, Parallel skiing with the feet does imply LTE first.

For those of you who, like references, see the section in Anyone Can be an Expert Skier 2: Debunking the myth of simultaneous edge change (p.50). As an alternatve, look at the Wedge-Blocker documents in the library of RealSkiers.com.


and 2007:

SkierSynergy wrote:These issues have been discussed over and over, but it's probably good to say again because Essentialls does not go into the amount of detail on the actual ankle/foot level movements of tipping as the earlier books. That is why I say that the earlier books can not be ignored. So, I would say there are a few simple things that would help make things clear.

Edging actions originate in the inversion of the free foot. This can be done to some extent with no rotation of the femur. This would be the case if you just stood in your boots with relatively straight legs and isolated the movement to you ankle.

However, this limits the range of motion that you have. It works and you can carve gentle turns very effectively, but a lot of people have very little range of movement here and for most skiing everyone needs to have more movement available to get bigger edge angles. One way to allow a greater range of motion is to flex the leg. If there is tipping effort from the foot/ankle, flexing allows the femur to rotate in the hip socket and allows for the knee to move. However, one should not use the muscles controlling the femur to actively rotate the femur and/or move the knee.

In effective tipping, the foot/ankle provides the cause and the knee and femur move as an effect. The leg is flexed just to allow greater range of movemment in the system.

In steering to tip, the muscles in the uppper leg are the cause and (at best) the knee drags the foot and ski into a tipped position. In reality, active knee movement doesn't necessatate any movement at the foot/ankle. One can simply move the knee with no inversion.

In effective tipping there is very little rotary input to the skis. In a steered movement of the knee, there is a significant amount of rotary input to the skis and maybe very little tipping of the foot.

So does the femur rotate? Does the knee move? Yes, but I think you see why we shudder when someone declares "See there's rotary in your skiing!" For PMTS it's about which causal chain is being used and what kind of input there is on the skis.

Ok with that said (and assumed throughout), here are a two simple rules that I think about when I ski in order to distinguish effective tipping from noneffective tipping.

1. The skis have to both roll through flat
2. The new inside ski must roll through flat and onto the LTE (a) ahead of the flattening/rolling of the new stance ski AND (b) ahead of the movement of the body into the turn.

I would say that these are rules that I think about because there are times that The skis roll simultaneously, but they do so because I made sequential effort. Look back at ACBES2's chapter on the myth of the simultaneous edge change.

If I even think simultaneous, the skis will go to the new stance BTE first. In order to be simultaneous I know that the causes have to be sequential toward the LTE first.

And I am not trying to acheive simultaneous as some goal.

Usually I am trying to be obviously sequential toward the LTE first in order to avoid going to the BTE first.

So here are a few example problems;

If the new stance ski hits the BTE before the inside ski hits the LTE, then no release. The problem with stems are not a late release (what the hell does that mean). The problem is no release. You have to, at least, simultaneously roll through flat for a release.

If the new stance ski's BTE tipping ahead of the inside skis LTE, then it's a sure sign of lack of tipping and steering/rotary with the muscles controlling the new stance ski's upper leg.

If the body is projected out ahead of the tipping effort of my free foot, then I have lost connection with the snow, and I'm overcommitted and out of control. The situation might work out and it might not, but it wasn't because I had control of things.

********************************************************

One other comment. For many of us, at some stage in the learning process, we can get into tipping with inside tip divergence. If it's during a phantom move, it can look like a "cork screw" tipping movement -- tip down and twist. This is a sign of steering with the muscles of the upper leg. You can get a really good fake tipping going by raising the tail of the ski as you twist to the inside. The LTE of the ski will contact the snow first, even if there isn't anything happening from the foot/ankle. Diverging limits tipping and adds rotary. There are some good exercises to eliminate cork screw tipping. If you like the target exercise. Pick out a target slightly more uphill than usual and point the free foot ski at the target as you tip and turn. Maybe others can also offer some more exercises.

Hope this helps.
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