Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

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Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby JFD » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:22 pm

I am reading chapter 2 Tipping in Essentials of Skiing. I am bit of confused about these part (carved arc from a tipped ski),
Be aware of how each ski reacts. Initially you may find that the skis want to travel in different directions, either running into each other or away from each other. This has two causes: the skis are at different edge angles, or one ski is more weighted than the other. Try to stand evenly balanced on both feet to maintain similar pressure under each foot. Tip both feet on edge, starting with the foot that tips toward its little toe edge


Here mentioned "stand evenly balanced on both feet". I am bit confused here because in Expert skier 1, balancing on one foot is emphasized. Is tipping in this chapter mainly for preparing early two feet release on high-C and high-C edge chang?
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby LiquidFeet » Thu May 03, 2018 8:06 am

Anybody want to answer this? I'm curious too ...
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Bun-chan » Thu May 03, 2018 10:06 am

Me too.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby jbotti » Thu May 03, 2018 3:11 pm

I haven't gone back and looked at the quote from essentials or the context in which it is written. But the quote seems clearer than the issue you seem to be having with it. HH is telling you how to correct something and he says:

"Initially you may find that the skis want to travel in different directions, either running into each other or away from each other. This has two causes: the skis are at different edge angles, or one ski is more weighted than the other. Try to stand evenly balanced on both feet to maintain similar pressure under each foot."

He isn't saying to ski this way all the time just when you have the issue of ski divergence.

PMTS skiing is mostly 1 footed and one will never progress to high levels of PMTS skiing without one footed skiing ability (all or almost all weight on the stance leg throughout the arc). But there are times when a less one footed approach is necessary (powder, at times in bumps etc).
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Bun-chan » Fri May 04, 2018 1:43 pm

Thank you JFD for asking the question. As jbotti says, I don't know exactly in what context that paragraph was written, but you and I may be wondering or confused with the same thing(s). I hope you don't mind me adding some questions here, which I hope address what you have asked as well.

I'm a strong believer of PMTS. It has transformed my skiing and made skiing more fun and exciting. It was exciting to see the way Harald, Diana and other instructors carving in person at A-Basin. So, for that, I really want to thank Harald, Diana and others who help us ski better. Perhaps because of my engineering background, I have a tendency to try to validate things by applying my knowledge of science, physics, math, etc. So, please understand that I am not questioning PMTS. I just hope someone can clarify what I have been wondering about.

By using the paragraph that JFD quoted, here are my questions:

"Tip both feet on edge, starting with the foot that tips toward its little toe edge."
This is exactly what I do, or at least try to do. I keep tipping the inside foot toward LTE throughout the turn while leaving the outside foot passive, i.e., being patient and delaying the edging. I feel the outside foot/ski automatically follows the tipping angle of the inside foot/ski until I reach the moment of releasing the outside ski at the end of the turn.

If this observation/feeling/interpretation of mine is correct, then technically the inside ski, which is leading the tipping movement, must be always slightly more tipped than the outside ski except for the very last moment of the turn.

QUESTION #1: Is anything wrong with my understanding above? Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Also, in her Brushed Curve Turn video, Diana talks about choosing the edge angle of the stance ski (leaving the stance ski less edged than the free foot/ski) while continuously tip the free foot to LTE. I believe this means the free/inside ski is more edged than the stance/outside ski.

QUESTION #2: Again, correct me if I'm wrong here.


"Try to stand evenly balanced on both feet to maintain similar pressure under each foot."
QUESTION #3: Could someone please clarify this statement? I would like to fully understand what it means. Physically speaking, it is impossible for two skis equally pressured and at the same exact angle to turn parallel. To turn, by definition, the outside ski has to travel longer distance than the inside ski. To put it differently, the outside ski has to travel faster than the inside ski. It's like speed skaters do crossovers to allow outside skate to travel faster/longer to continuously change the direction. It's like "differential" in automobile technology which allows outside wheels to travel faster/longer than inside wheels.

Having said that, since skis have camber, when they are edged and thus flexed, they naturally create curved tracks. However, to create a short "tight" turn, the outside ski has to be predominantly weighted so that it can travel faster than the inside ski. Also, as Harald says, shortening and pulling back of the inside leg creates higher edge angle and more forward pressure, thus, a tighter turn.

It seems to me that all these tightening-turn movements (putting more weight on the ouside foot; shortening the inside foot; and pulling the inside foot back) boil down to one thing: letting the outside ski go faster and slowing the inside ski down relative to the outside ski. Because that's what needs to happen for the skis to turn parallel especially in a short radius.

Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby geoffda » Fri May 04, 2018 3:24 pm

Whether you understand skiing is really determined by your skiing, not by your writing. If you want to know whether you understand something, put up video. I'm going to answer your questions, but I'm not sure how useful it will be. It is difficult to learn much about skiing through discussions on the internet. Words can help when we are standing on the slope and I can demonstrate what I'm talking about and you can try it for yourself and get feedback on whether you achieved understanding. In any case, let's not let this thread go much further. If you want to understand the books, the best thing you can do is go do the things that you are reading about. With all of Harald's writings, understanding comes from doing. None of his books are meant to be read, they are meant to be done. If people just go do the thing he is writing about, they generally get it. Don't try to parse his sentences. He isn't trying to explain anything, he is trying to offer you a guide to experiencing the things you need to experience in order to develop your own understanding of how skiing works.

Bun-chan wrote:"Tip both feet on edge, starting with the foot that tips toward its little toe edge."
This is exactly what I do, or at least try to do. I keep tipping the inside foot toward LTE throughout the turn while leaving the outside foot passive, i.e., being patient and delaying the edging. I feel the outside foot/ski automatically follows the tipping angle of the inside foot/ski until I reach the moment of releasing the outside ski at the end of the turn.

If this observation/feeling/interpretation of mine is correct, then technically the inside ski, which is leading the tipping movement, must be always slightly more tipped than the outside ski except for the very last moment of the turn.

QUESTION #1: Is anything wrong with my understanding above? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

LTE edge tipping is what starts the process of moving the hips inside of the new turn, which is what causes the stance leg to roll onto BTE. However, once the BTE engages it must be actively managed with BTE tipping. In most turns, the stance leg does not stay passive.

Bun-chan wrote:Also, in her Brushed Curve Turn video, Diana talks about choosing the edge angle of the stance ski (leaving the stance ski less edged than the free foot/ski) while continuously tip the free foot to LTE. I believe this means the free/inside ski is more edged than the stance/outside ski.

QUESTION #2: Again, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Yes, this is true. Asymmetric tipping will start a brush. However, in most cases once the brush starts, BTE tipping of the stance foot will be used to bring the edge angles parallel to carve the bottom of the turn.

Bun-chan wrote:"Try to stand evenly balanced on both feet to maintain similar pressure under each foot."
QUESTION #3: Could someone please clarify this statement? I would like to fully understand what it means. Physically speaking, it is impossible for two skis equally pressured and at the same exact angle to turn parallel. To turn, by definition, the outside ski has to travel longer distance than the inside ski. To put it differently, the outside ski has to travel faster than the inside ski. It's like speed skaters do crossovers to allow outside skate to travel faster/longer to continuously change the direction. It's like "differential" in automobile technology which allows outside wheels to travel faster/longer than inside wheels.

Having said that, since skis have camber, when they are edged and thus flexed, they naturally create curved tracks. However, to create a short "tight" turn, the outside ski has to be predominantly weighted so that it can travel faster than the inside ski. Also, as Harald says, shortening and pulling back of the inside leg creates higher edge angle and more forward pressure, thus, a tighter turn.

It seems to me that all these tightening-turn movements (putting more weight on the ouside foot; shortening the inside foot; and pulling the inside foot back) boil down to one thing: letting the outside ski go faster and slowing the inside ski down relative to the outside ski. Because that's what needs to happen for the skis to turn parallel especially in a short radius.

Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.

You are over thinking this. He is talking about pressure under the foot with respect to weight distribution, not with respect to ski performance. Anyway, the point of this statement is to show people how to access to the carving properties of the ski. This is not how we ski generally; it is a necessary simplification to enable preliminary understanding. Skiing can neither be taught nor understood in the medium of language. It has to be experienced. While everything you say seems reasonable, it isn't interesting because knowing it doesn't make anyone a better skier. Either you can make a carved short turn or you can't and that is completely independent of knowing the physics behind it. There are plenty of folks out there that understand the physics of what makes a ski turn, but couldn't make a turn themselves to save their lives. That is why we try to avoid such discussions on the forum.

Again, go do the thing being described. Then, if you have difficulties come back and ask for help.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Jjmdane » Sat May 05, 2018 5:09 am

Certainly one needs one footed skiing proficiency for PMTS skiing but there are many times where you can have a more evenly balanced stance, not just in bumps,powder, crud, etc. Two footed skiing can be seen in WC slalom and very high end free skiing as evidenced by Lorenz, McGlashan, and others. Just look at their tracks and in many instances they are close to being evenly weighted. When both skies are loaded they can put out more energy than just loading one ,when one finishes the turn correctly. Trying to be one footed most of the time makes ones skiing ,not wrong, but very one dimensional,which I think is a very common phenomenon. Because perfect balance is fleeting it makes sense that as one strives for it in each turn,the weight on each ski can vary. It goes without saying that a 90/10 weighting of the skies happens a good deal of the time with good skiers and racers.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby l2ski » Sat May 05, 2018 6:16 am

Jjmdane wrote:Certainly one needs one footed skiing proficiency for PMTS skiing but there are many times where you can have a more evenly balanced stance, not just in bumps,powder, crud, etc. Two footed skiing can be seen in WC slalom and very high end free skiing as evidenced by Lorenz, McGlashan, and others. Just look at their tracks and in many instances they are close to being evenly weighted. When both skies are loaded they can put out more energy than just loading one ,when one finishes the turn correctly. Trying to be one footed most of the time makes ones skiing ,not wrong, but very one dimensional,which I think is a very common phenomenon. Because perfect balance is fleeting it makes sense that as one strives for it in each turn,the weight on each ski can vary. It goes without saying that a 90/10 weighting of the skies happens a good deal of the time with good skiers and racers.


I'm no expert, but I don't see those guys being evenly balanced. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to balance
over both edged skis throughout the turn and have them bend just the right amount to keep them moving in parallel at speed.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby jbotti » Sat May 05, 2018 8:55 am

Yeah Riley and buds as well as WC guys are all 90/10 almost all the time in the arcs being mentioned. Just because the inside ski makes a track does not mean there is very much weight on it. No shot to get that much performance out of the skis with 50% of ones weight on the inside ski.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Bun-chan » Sat May 05, 2018 9:17 pm

Thank you Jjimdance, I2ski and jobotti for your comments that I clearly understand. I think my question was answered. Also, I am glad to know that this thread has continued and that the forum is not avoiding this type of discussions unlike someone suggested it should.

Jjimdance's comment makes sense. Harald, Lorenz, McGlashan, and other great skiers don't seem to ski 90/10 weight distribution "digitally." Their movements are fluid and more "analogue," i.e., no abrupt change (more dynamic and continuous) in weight distributions.

Every time I do the "Weighted Release" drill, I do feel it helps refine my short radius turns. It also reminds me of Haralad talking about Michael von Grünigen's technique. Keeping weight on the stance ski as it tilts to its outside edge really makes a quick and smooth turn. I can see expert turning is not done with static weight distribution, but with more delicate and continuously adapting one. As I mix "Weighted Release," "Two footed release," "Super Phantom," etc., perhaps by accident, I feel my weight distribution seems somewhat even at least some part of a turn. But, since I ski almost always in icy conditions (North-East), frankly speaking, it is often kind of scary to trust LTE of my (new) inside ski. I tend to do 90/10 more often. :D
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Max_501 » Sun May 06, 2018 11:12 am

While the release can be one footed, two footed, or weighted, the majority of the weight should be on the outside ski once the new edges are engaged and turning the skis.

From 2014:

jbotti wrote:Here is a subtle but important distinction. In PMTS we always have the majority of weight on our outside or stance ski, even in powder. This can mean as little as 51% but never equal or more weight on the inside ski. If you look at the great off piste photos of Max and Heluva there is a large amount of counterbalance in their off piste turns even in pow (perhaps especially in pow). When we have this much CB in our skiing it is virtually impossible to be equal weighted as more weight will naturally fall on the stance ski. In pow the stance ski takes less weight than on hard snow, but it still and always has the majority of the weight.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Erik » Sun May 06, 2018 2:49 pm

JFD wrote:I am bit confused here because in Expert skier 1, balancing on one foot is emphasized. Is tipping in this chapter mainly for preparing early two feet release on high-C and high-C edge chang?

For the original poster (JFD) -

To answer your specific question
"Is tipping in this chapter mainly for preparing early two feet release on high-C and high-C edge chang?


No. The purpose of Chapter 2 of Essentials is to introduce the concept of Tipping on and off the edges as a primary, essential movement in all phases of the turn, all releases, and in all conditions and speeds. You are correct from the perspective about this chapter is that it does introduce the tipping movements to practice the High-C edge change. For many skiers the concept of getting "upside down" at the top of the arc is a new concept, and it might really stand out for you in reading this chapter. However, every detail of tipping on and off edges is important in all PMTS skiing.

For context, Chapter 2 ESSENTIAL - TIPPING begins with dryland practice of tipping on and off the edges through sitting on a chair, practicing with boots on a slant board, then practicing tipping movements on skis while stationary on flat snow.

The section you quoted comes after HH introduces tipping while moving on the snow (carved arc from a tipped ski), performed on an edged traverse. Your quoted text is at the beginning of the section (p.49 in my copy) about the carved arc from a straight run, as a prelude to the more detailed discussion on the following page. On Page 50, HH says "Begin on a gentle slope, facing straight downhill, with your skis parallel and flat on the snow"..."start sliding downhill with the skis flat". This is where the issue of having your feet equally weighted applies.

HH then goes on to say "Begin to tip the inside foot for the arc - onto its little toe edge by lifting the big-toed edge of the ski away from the snow. Keep enough weight on the foot so that the edge leaves a groove in the snow." Many PMTS skiers who are new to the concept of one-footed balance lift the boot too high and forget to tip it because they are too focused on trying to maintain their balance. Here, HH asks the skier to not completely unweight the inside foot, and to focus on the hinging/tipping movement.

Read the follow-on comments by HH at the top of page 51, where he discussed how the skis should stay at about the same distance through the arc, and that if they didn't it is due to one of the two causes (skis are at different edge angles, or one ski is more weighted than the other) referred to on p. 49 and your original question.

Please go back and re-read this section in context of this slow speed introduction to tipping while moving, and I think you will find that it makes more sense. Balance is very important in the slow-speed exercises, and if you are having any problems with balance while doing them, carefully re-reading HH's instructions should help.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Bun-chan » Mon May 07, 2018 7:23 am

I see. That is the context in which the quoted statement is written. Erik, thank you for your clarification.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby JFD » Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 pm

Thanks very much Erik. That answered my questions. I will go back to read the book again.
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Re: Tipping in Essentials of Skiing

Postby Robert0325 » Thu May 10, 2018 5:31 am

I think I also read in one of HH's books (can't remember which) that you should always be able to lift the inside ski during any part of the turn. This in turn would imply that balance should be at all times over the outside ski during the turn.

Not sure if it helps.... It helps me to think that way anyway.
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