Comparing National Demo Teams

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Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:13 pm

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com

Too many photos to import. I will make some direct one on one comparisons as we go. There is definitely something off with the PSIA Team. Is it technique or alignment or both.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby ComprexX » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:59 pm

It's both, most of the US skiers have bad alignment and their movements are'nt really efficicent for modern skis.
That is really not very good skiing from the US team by any measure-- whether the measure is PMTS or TTS or "just skiing".
What happened to PSIA??
I remember in the late 80s and early 90s the National Demo team had some excellent athletes and skiers (male and female) and there were many talented skiers on the Division level demo teams.

(Edited)
Last edited by ComprexX on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:51 pm

The alignment is terrible on 8 of ten of the PSIA skiers, they are way off. Even the Austrians have a few that are "A framed". The PSIA Demo, their skis are too wide and they can't get them on edge, they are pushing their skis around on flat bases, not tipping them.
The only ones using PMTS are Diana and me, and the best of the Austrian group.
Do you notice any skiers with the inside ski not tipped as far, or flatter than the outside ski? Yes that because they don't understand the movements that create a release or where a turn starts. It's still the old traditional technique by traditional ski school.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby ComprexX » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:02 pm

I should have been more clear--my comments were directed at the US PSIA Demo team skiing, sorry I was'nt more specific.
I edited my post accordingly.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby MarcS » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:27 pm

It looks like most are turning by using CA and CB with a back seat hip dump.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby DougD » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:28 am

MarcS wrote:It looks like most are turning by using CA and CB with a back seat hip dump.

If you're referring to the PSIA teamers, they show very little CA or CB. Some actually exhibit negative CA. One almost attains negative CB!
Photo #6:
Skier 1: no CA, small CB
Skier 2: no CA, no CB (what looks like CB is just a side effect of being A-framed)
Skier 3: small CA, no CB (what looks like CB is just a tucked outside knee + a hunched forward torso with his butt sticking back)
Skier 4: negative CA (torso facing inside the arc), negative CB (over-extended, out of balance, massive inside lean... he looks like any intermediate skier)
Skier 5: negative CA, (torso facing inside the arc), no CB

Compare Photo #16:
Skier 1: full CA (torso facing stance boot), appropriate CB (torso angled laterally toward stance foot)
Skier 2: see Skier 1
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby skijim13 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:05 am

Doug, I agree with you about your comments. Haralds comments have got the PSIA members upset. I noticed on the PSIA teaching ideas forum, a chain of people attacking him for his comments about the demo team. Funny they only attack because the true hurts and their skiing is not anywhere close to the PMTS level of skiing. On the issue of alignment since they use wide skis and rotary with a wide stance they don't spend much time with alignment. Great that us students can see the bad skiing.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:05 am

DougD, you are right on the mark with your analysis. Most are rotated and two footed.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:17 am

Image

Here you can see the Austrians, although far more dynamic than the PSIA group, they have a few pinched knees as well. However they have a few guys that look like PMTS. The only real difference for the two good ones is in the upper body pole use, they have at the dreaded high elbow, and that leads to rotation at the finish. Look specifically at the last skier. His elbow is up, now look at the rest of the skiers with the high elbow, they are leaning and have an "A Frame". The first one looks totally PMTS. He is also the closest to Richie Berger's skiing.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby DougD » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:04 pm

h.harb wrote:DougD, you are right on the mark with your analysis. Most are rotated and two footed.

Harald, thanks for that. More important, thanks for developing and publishing a skiing analytic that lets even non-expert skiers perceive what's actually happening in many skier photos/videos. I only wish I'd found PMTS 30 years ago.

I almost had to cancel for Short Turns 1 due to a work conflict, but that's been resolved. I'm not too proud (actually, I'm eager) to have you deconstruct MY skiing. :oops:

Jim, as you know, an instructor who's afraid of criticism is an instructor who's stopped learning. I lost interest in "teachers" like that somewhere around 3rd grade. :roll:
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby MarcS » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:18 pm

Doug you are completely right, I was just trying to determine how they can actually initiate turns without PMTS foot movements.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:36 pm

That is an easy one, they push off, extend and steer, then they rotate, push the skis out, drive the outside knee and start over. This is not wold class ski technique, it's old, national ski school, type systems.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby MarcS » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:38 pm

Just think that these are the highly motivated few who have spent countless years perfecting inefficient intermediate turns. So much of their ego and identity is invested that it is no wonder they are so defensive and angry when you point out that their skiing is mediocre. A+ for effort, D for skiing. So sad, I feel sorry for them.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby DougD » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:52 am

Harald,

Regarding the Austrian team, here's a secondhand report of one of their presentations (from the PSIA's Interski report):

Austria Presents ‘Carving for Kids’ Lesson
It is no surprise Austria’s first on-snow workshop was about carving. Or that it focused on ways to get kids arcing turns in the same fashion as their World Cup idols. Their 1-2-3 progression to helping kids experience the sensation of a well-carved turn was familiar to PSIA-AASI Alpine Team members Dave Lyon and Jeb Boyd, but its succinct effectiveness still impressed them. Here are Austria’s three quick tips for helping kids start carving on your mountain. (Start on a low angled slope and discuss each sensation, and practice with a fellow snow pro beforehand.)

1. Have students put their poles behind their knees, grip them from the front of their knees, and as they ski, slowly turn across the fall-line.
2. Leaving their poles behind, have students cross their hands across their knees (left hand on right knee and vice-versa), and perform the same action.
3. Hold poles across the front of the knees and perform the same action—using hands to steer the knees into each turn.

The sensation from each task is immediate, and offers a strong first sensation of the act of carving.

Apparently, even the Austrian school is teaching knee driving with upper body rotation. :(
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby skijim13 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:03 am

Sad, they don't seem to be able to analyze what world cup skiers do. They need to learn PMTS, now it is so apparent to see the difference with extending to release, leg steering and the lack of CA, CB. I feel bad for the students on the race team at our mountain when the coaches tell them to point their knees into the direction of the turn they want to go.
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