Learning PMTS

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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby BigE » Thu May 07, 2015 6:57 pm

Max_501 wrote:
BigE wrote:Maybe next season, will try the GS skis.


GS skies are best left alone until you've mastered the Essentials.


Yes, I think so too.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby sujo » Sat May 09, 2015 10:47 pm

I've been skiing a 23 meter 183 Fischer GS 102-67-88 the last few years. It has a soft tip and bends easily at slow speeds and easily makes quick carved turns as long as you tip and use foot pull back. I took the plates off too which really helped. It did take a few days to get used to them and they do want to run but they have forced me to use PMTS essentials even more compared to the GS cheater skis I had before. I do the TFR and OFR drills all the time which has really helped in the moguls.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby Max_501 » Sun May 10, 2015 7:16 am

sujo wrote:I've been skiing a 23 meter 183 Fischer GS 102-67-88 the last few years. It has a soft tip and bends easily at slow speeds and easily makes quick carved turns as long as you tip and use foot pull back. I took the plates off too which really helped. It did take a few days to get used to them and they do want to run but they have forced me to use PMTS essentials even more compared to the GS cheater skis I had before. I do the TFR and OFR drills all the time which has really helped in the moguls.


How you confirmed proper PMTS movements with video? I ask because even a soft 23M race ski doesn't make what we consider "quick carved turns", and Fischer isn't known for making soft race skis.

Note - if a GS ski bent easily at slow speeds they'd be useless at GS speeds.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby jbotti » Sun May 10, 2015 9:41 am

I actually own a pair of 23m GS skis in a 182cm length (as does Max). Mine are Rossi's. They are great skis. I have trouble knowing how to respond to posts like this. The truth of the matter as Max points out is the race room GS skis do not bend easily or turn easily at slow speeds and this is fact that can't be refuted. So again back to the post, not sure how you are bending a race GS ski at slow speeds and I am going to bet that you aren't. So the question arises (which is true for so many PMTS skiers that are in the process of mastering essentials), can you bend a ski at all and do actually know what this looks and feels like.

Please don't take this the wrong way but we try hard to keep misinformation from creeping up and influencing people (especially newbies) on the forum. Again, if Tina Maze can't bend a women's GS ski at 20 mph I am going to bet that no one on this forum can.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby sujo » Sun May 10, 2015 10:08 pm

When doing the pullback drill on green slopes by pulling both feet back and tipping the skis on edge they did seem to bend (sorry no video). I was trying to do the pullback drill as shown on page 191 of the Essentials book, Fore/AFT balance chapter where Harald is bending the skis. The goal was to tip the skis on edge with balance far forward. One of my biggest problems is not getting forward enough so this drill really helps.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby Max_501 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:33 pm

sujo wrote:When doing the pullback drill on green slopes by pulling both feet back and tipping the skis on edge they did seem to bend (sorry no video).


GS skis don't bend doing slow drills on green slopes - at least not in the way we use the word "bend" on this site.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby BigE » Mon May 11, 2015 2:00 pm

I have a pair of the 23m fischer hole ski (womens FIS). They are not as stiff as you would think, and can initiate a turn fairly easily. That being said, I hate them..... they are not as stable a ski as I want when skiing faster, and do not inspire confidence. My kids race, and they too hate those skis for being fairly over-active. If you have good technique, fine, but otherwise forget it. Same goes for the Fischer SL hole -- it will respond to whatever input you give it.... when that input is incorrect, it can surprise you.

For them, Head rules the day. It is a ski that allows them to make movements.

I'm skiing an older Atomic recreational SL for the same reasons -- that and budget.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby Max_501 » Mon May 11, 2015 8:51 pm

BigE wrote:They are not as stiff as you would think, and can initiate a turn fairly easily.


Turn initiation is from tipping and balance during the high C, long before the ski is pressured. Therefore the ski's stiffness doesn't matter much, if at all, during initiation. OTOH, when it comes to reducing the arc the ski's flex becomes very important.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby DougD » Tue May 12, 2015 6:43 am

Max_501 wrote:Turn initiation is from tipping and balance during the high C, long before the ski is pressured. Therefore the ski's stiffness doesn't matter much, if at all, during initiation. OTOH, when it comes to reducing the arc the ski's flex becomes very important.

Another perfect insight from Max.

My old Volkl "straight" GS skis were stiffer than most any modern ski, but they initiated turns easily. Balance on the new outside ski, tip it and it would begin to turn. However, they turned at a radius so long that one was soon going mach schnell and still accelerating. Shortening that radius while also maintaining a clean carve was impossible because they were too stiff to flex into tighter arcs.

The only way to shorten turn radius on a too-stiff ski is to twist and skid it with rotary movements. OTOH, the softer flexing skis recommended by HSS come alive in the middle and bottom of the turn, where the skier's increasing tipping allows naturally rising pressures to flex the ski into a tighter arc.
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