Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one?

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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:45 pm

razie wrote:Yeah, everything needs work - but there is nothing major to improve, at least not that I can easily see.


Highly unlikely.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:00 pm

Max_501 wrote:
razie wrote:Yeah, everything needs work - but there is nothing major to improve, at least not that I can easily see.


Max,
The key part of that is the part I've underlined... which highlights the key point of this thread.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:50 pm

razie wrote:I don't teach WC turns. Those are messy, on the edge of control... Skis floated and jammed... If they were great turns, they wouldn't be winning jack! Did you read Harald's intro to the essentials?


You misunderstood Harald's intro if that is what you got out of it.

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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby razie » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:57 pm

Max_501 wrote:
razie wrote:
HeluvaSkier wrote:I don't teach WC turns. Those are messy, on the edge of control... Skis floated and jammed... If they were great turns, they wouldn't be winning jack! Did you read Harald's intro to the essentials?


You misunderstood Harald's intro if that is what you got out of it

Shiffrin -most awesome skiing, eh - i cant see the video up here, some rights missing.

HH's intro says that great technique is just the basics, racers need to push it all the time and not get stuck just making great turns - that is not fast... you can take that to mean that WC turns are not great turns if you take it literally and i Was making a point... C'mon!
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:59 pm

If you want to gauge someone's technical understanding and therefore what that person is able to teach, all you have to do in nearly all cases is look at their skiing. You will quickly see the limitations of their understanding. Ask them to describe their skiing and what they are trying to correct and all questions are quickly answered.

You teach turns. Great skiing is reserved for great skiers.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby razie » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:06 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:If you want to gauge someone's technical understanding and therefore what that person is able to teach, all you have to do in nearly all cases is look at their skiing. You will quickly see the limitations of their understanding. Ask them to describe their skiing and what they are trying to correct and all questions are quickly answered.

You teach turns. Great skiing is reserved for great skiers.

I hear you... But even if i don't ski well myself, but can understand what i need to do and critique my own video decently, doesn't that mean that i can teach the same to others, whose skiing i watch and correct? Call me an desk coach, but wouldn't that work?
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby razie » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:10 pm

Seriously, there have been studies and this should work: get a decently smart person to read 1000 correct MAs on this forum. They will then learn to perform perfect MA of the highest level, without having put skis on ever. I bet you this works... Just to disprove what you said, ad literam.

I do hear you though and that is why i am trying to improve my own skiing.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:12 pm

I quote myself as it bears repeating.

HeluvaSkier wrote:They have no knowledge of the turning forces involved, the rebound energy involved, the range of motion required, how much pressure there really is on the skis, what to do with the pressure when it is released, or even how to release it in the first place. They cannot describe the movements, the results, the sensations, or how to get there.

...You can't talk to these people. They have no experiences on which to base any kind of understanding. Only the coach who seeks to further their understanding to the point of actually being able to demonstrate what they are trying to teach their athletes will ever be able to speak the same language as their athletes, and actually teach their athletes to ski like the best skiers in the world.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:13 pm

razie wrote:Shiffrin -most awesome skiing, eh - i cant see the video up here, some rights missing.


The video is Shiffin's latest win. The first run she had a 1.5sec lead and the turns where nearly perfect showing that your prior statement was way off base.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:18 pm

razie wrote:Seriously, there have been studies and this should work: get a decently smart person to read 1000 correct MAs on this forum. They will then learn to perform perfect MA of the highest level, without having put skis on ever. I bet you this works... Just to disprove what you said, ad literam.


Unfortunately not. Just one example, it would be nearly impossible for such a person to know when a racer was applying too much pressure to the skis. They've never felt it themselves and its very difficult to see in video unless its way way too much.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:43 pm

razie wrote:Ok. I think we're reaching some form of an agreement, in the sense that I see your point :) but i still think i can do a decent job at my level.


If you follow the PMTS material you should be able to do a decent job! Many of us have proven that. But trying to mix PMTS with other systems is a recipe for failure.

razie wrote:Will i stop trying to improve myself? Nope.


Self improvement is area that some coaches avoid and one of the things Heluva was pointing out. You deserve credit for trying to find a better way to improve your own skiing along with that of your kids.

razie wrote:Will i stop coaching my kids? Nope... I don't trust any other coach i can afford, to do a better job. If you have a better idea, let me know.


Follow the books/dvds, take daily video (and review it over lunch if possible and then at the end of the day), post the video for MA (or if you don't want it up on the forum ask one of us to review it privately). Consider attending some PMTS camps and pursuing PMTS accreditation (I did this so my kids would give my feedback more credibility, it worked). If possible have the kids attend at least one PMTS camp so they can have their alignment checked, footbeds made (if needed), and get some instruction from a trained PMTS coach.

razie wrote:Do you make it harder for other coaches to seek help via MA requests etc? Yup.


Coaches should be able to handle the heat just as they should be working to provide their athletes with the best training possible.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:50 pm

razie wrote:Actually i was going to ask this on epic and it should go here as well. Can everyone commenting on technique post a video of their skiing, so we can see who's talking?

I think it's very reasnable and goes in fact along the lines of the original question of this thread.


You are going to post that on Epic? Good luck with that!

There is already video of many of the guys that discuss technique here. You'll find that this forum is a supporter of "Got Video?"
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:34 am

Razie I lost respect for you now. Your posts have been confusing and often way of topic, showing your Weakness of ski technique, Now you want to go to Epic. Good luck, you are lost forever. You can't MA your own skiing and fix those movements? Sorry but you have many Essentials missing in your skiing, you need to cure yourself before you try to coach others.You don't need me to MA your skiing either, there are many here more than qualified that can identify those exteme gyrations you call skiing movements. Clearly your Canadian ski coaching training has had little positive effect on your skiing.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:56 am

I just can't understand you coming here trying to argue or convince members of your points of view, of coaching, when you clearly have little background. There are many here who you argue with that far exceed your understanding in not only coaching, but skiing. Are you really here to learn, or are you trying to prove you know something? You repeat the same tiresome points and the answers to you from members here have been polite, yet you continue to push incorrect and scattered thinking and points. That's not how one goes about learning.
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Re: Can't make a WC turn? Why do you think you can teach one

Postby arothafel » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:06 pm

This is a great thread and an age-old debate in many fields. Even among shrinks... the debate is: how can you really “understand” depression if you’ve never suffered from it.

With today’s technology, it’s possible for sports biomechanics and kinesiology experts to “wire-up” a skier and get all kinds of data to assess and analyze movements and performance down to the millisecond.

But in the end, Helluva has a point -- especially in talking about "sensations":
They cannot describe the movements, the results, the sensations, or how to get there.


Unless they have skied at that level or close to it, how would even the best sports performance scientist know the internal “cues” (sensations) the racer is feeling or experiencing at any given moment in the turn. A scientist can point out everything that is happening (mechanically) but would still not have the internal cues. Yet, an experienced racer (coach) would have a pretty good idea.

And, as for all the examples of successful coaches who, themselves, were not athletes or racers... it begs the question: What if...?

Would Ghirardelli, Killy, et all have been even greater...?
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