Strangely familiar

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Strangely familiar

Postby tigernbr » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:03 pm

I got this in my youtube recommendations today. Interested to hear comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWqQ4pf2OII
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby h.harb » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:13 am

This is a mixed bag of some good parts, and confusion, however he doesn't demonstrate what he says, in his own skiing. I wonder where he got the foot pull back, ah? The extension part is nonsense.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby DougD » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:39 am

h.harb wrote:This is a mixed bag of some good parts, and confusion, however he doesn't demonstrate what he says, in his own skiing. I wonder where he got the foot pull back, ah? The extension part is nonsense.

Well... he does demonstrate extension pretty well! :roll:

Last week I intentionally initiated 2 or 3 turns with extension, TTS style - strictly as a reality check to confirm that my normal turns don't include that any more. I was instantly rendered unbalanced, stiff, disconnected, unresponsive... just plain klutzy. The High-C didn't happen at all. I was reduced to rotating, leaning and zig-zag shaped turns. Blech!
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby Vailsteve » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:06 pm

Pullback pullback pullback!!

I will NEVER forget Diana yelling at me: "Pull your feet back!"

She, of course, was right on. Makes a huge difference on steeps. And ice. And in crud. Heck, in everything.

VailSteve

PS. The Slot (upper section) was skiing beautifully today. Soft with some chopped powder. Bottom not so much. Hard and "scrape-y". Still, one of the better days at Vail this season...
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:26 am

One thing I have learned is that most exercises shown on You Tube are not very well presented. They are rarely integrated back into the skiing for the student, after the exercise is complete.


For exercises to be worthwhile and successful there has to be a beginning, middle and an integration phase.

First, the coach has to give the student the reason, motivation, why the exercise is worth doing and relevant. Then the coach describes where in the arc and for what purpose the exercise is introduced. I never see this being done properly, in USSA coaching programs or in regular lessons.

Then there has to be a strong relationship of "quality of performance", feedback, and refinement, conveyed to the student so the results from the exercise can be evaluated. I see exercises everywhere being done incorrectly without any coaching to mend the issues. There is no point in doing exercises if the same mistakes are created during the exercise as in the regular skiing.

The most important part is conveyed after the exercise, which is; how to integrate the movements from the exercise back into your actual skiing movements.

At exactly what point in the movement sequence of a series of arcs, is the exercise movement learned, supposed to be brought into action? This is what a highly skilled coach does, I never see this being done!

Example, in the "angry mother" exercise, sure you can sense where your hips are with the "angry mother" exercise, however you aren't holding your poles. Holding the poles properly and guiding them through connected arcs isn't a trivial skill or accomplishment. Many very good skiers don't have very good pole use capability. So the coach isn't done after the exercise, that the easy part, he's just beginning the process of coaching and change, and will only be successful, if he knows what he's doing!!! If the poles and arms are not supportive of the "angry mother" movements and awareness, then the exercise is defeated.

It's why I always have to hold off my laugh when an instructor tells me, "Oh yes, I use some of your stuff." When I hear this I immediately know he doesn't have a clue about our stuff.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby dewdman42 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:00 pm

I will add that a TTS instructor trying to use angry mother is most likely completely unaware that the focus is on counter action, nor which muscles to activate to do it. I don’t know if they would even see value in the drill much less teach it correctly much less integrate it back into skiing. TTS folks generally believe that upper lower separation is created by steering the legs. They would be totally in left field from the get go.

I have seen fellow TTS instructors slaughter something distantly representing the two footed release. They are so off in left field it’s not even remotely related. They prefer pivot slips anyway.

Our local TTS division added something called “flex through transition” to the L3 ski test. I have yet to see any TTS trainer or instructor demonstrate it properly, what they do is contrived and trying to mimic it without any understanding whatsoever about what it means to flex to release and the various moving parts that are involved. Most of them are still fundamentally reliant on pushing their CoM into the turn.

It’s comical to watch them try to teach what they don’t really understand but somehow they are determining that some of these movements must be important to have in the toolbox so they are trying but they don’t really understand it other then at a very superficial level. Form over function and not even entirely correct form.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby Vailsteve » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:57 pm

h.harb wrote:One thing I have learned is that most exercises shown on You Tube are not very well presented. They are rarely integrated back into the skiing for the student, after the exercise is complete.


For exercises to be worthwhile and successful there has to be a beginning, middle and an integration phase.

First, the coach has to give the student the reason, motivation, why the exercise is worth doing and relevant. Then the coach describes where in the arc and for what purpose the exercise is introduced. I never see this being done properly, in USSA coaching programs or in regular lessons.

Then there has to be a strong relationship of "quality of performance", feedback, and refinement, conveyed to the student so the results from the exercise can be evaluated. I see exercises everywhere being done incorrectly without any coaching to mend the issues. There is no point in doing exercises if the same mistakes are created during the exercise as in the regular skiing.

The most important part is conveyed after the exercise, which is; how to integrate the movements from the exercise back into your actual skiing movements.


This quote from Harald, captures, to me at least, the true essence of phenomenonal coaching—the complete circle of the “why”, the “how”, and the “required result” I think TTS so often misses on most, if not all of these elements.

I for one will absolutely take this to heart in my own development...

Vailsteve.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby DougD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:32 am

dewdman42 wrote:It’s comical to watch them try to teach what they don’t really understand but somehow they are determining that some of these movements must be important to have in the toolbox so they are trying but they don’t really understand it other then at a very superficial level.

The "toolbox" approach is the problem. They don't want a coherent system of movements - because this would compel them to make clients uncomfortable as they unlearn old movements. Having a "toolbox" gives each instructor a smorgasbord of unrelated tips and tricks that they can pull out to make the client feel good. This philosophy is at the core of PSIA literature.

One of my co-workers is a senior Ski Patrol trainer. We talk skiing alot, but I rarely venture into technique. Yesterday he told another skier to jump straight up in the air (in street shoes) and land in a stable stance... that this was how to find one's "natural" stance width. There's nothing remotely related to skiing movements in this, but hey...

I bit my tongue, as always. He tells people I make great turns but unless he asks me to explain how, there's no point in contradicting him.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:38 am

This quote from Harald, captures, to me at least, the true essence of phenomenal coaching—the complete circle of the “why”, the “how”, and the “required result” I think TTS so often misses on most, if not all of these elements.


The problem PSIA has, goes much deeper then just "the Bag of tricks" approach, although I agree with Steve. They can't possibly fulfill a student's motivation because they can't connect the dots. PSIA doesn't identify the movements of the student. They don't know how to determine a SMIM. After that they don't have the movement understanding of how to reverse or correct. Example, if you have an upper body rotator, you have to teach lower body tipping and CA. PSIA can't do either with their "outcome" approach. Teaching outcomes, doesn't change movements. And as Steve wrote, they don't follow the steps for development I lined out in my previous post, even if they do select the right trick in the bag.

In our PMTS Direct Parallel system, we ask the "why", "how" and we "evaluate the results", every time. All of our coaches are trained to do this and they all have to show us how to do this during PMTS accreditation. PSIA doesn't require these approaches of their instructors. Even their Demo Team doesn't know how to create the lesson approach I outlined. It would require a total deconstruct of their approach and re-training of all their instructors. I guarantee that more than 50% of their instructors would not be able to pass a Green PMTS level.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:17 pm

h.harb wrote:The problem PSIA has, goes much deeper then just "the Bag of tricks" approach, although I agree with Steve. They can't possibly fulfill a student's motivation because they can't connect the dots. PSIA doesn't identify the movements of the student. They don't know how to determine a SMIM. After that they don't have the movement understanding of how to reverse or correct. Example, if you have an upper body rotator, you have to teach lower body tipping and CA. PSIA can't do either with their "outcome" approach. Teaching outcomes, doesn't change movements. And as Steve wrote, they don't follow the steps for development I lined out in my previous post, even if they do select the right trick in the bag.


I've always maintained that the problems you've highlighted stem from there being no defined technical model for how to make a turn. PMTS has always had the sample turn where every movement that is taught in PMTS is demonstrated. North American ski instruction doesn't have that, so they have no basis to evaluate skiing. Individuals may have a model in their head for a how to make a turn, however as we see time and time again, this varies... which is why if we ask 10 different examiners how to improve someone's skiing we would probably get 11+ answers. This all relates back to a lack of a target or measuring stick for skiing (maybe they don't want a measuring stick as it exposes their flaws).
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:24 pm

Why do you think they don't want to post their skiing? The mouth is flapping like they know it all, but their feet can't match it. This was the Epic Ski ethos. Ethos means, "the characteristic spirit of a culture".
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby jbotti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:42 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:I've always maintained that the problems you've highlighted stem from there being no defined technical model for how to make a turn.


I assume pun intended :D :D
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:19 pm

jbotti wrote:
HeluvaSkier wrote:I've always maintained that the problems you've highlighted stem from there being no defined technical model for how to make a turn.


I assume pun intended :D :D


Actually yes. I rewrote it once without the word stem, but I actually changed it back to stem. Lol.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby blackthorn » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:08 pm

For me, PMTS is the only coherent approach at every level. Helluva's attempt on the PU**KI forum to develop a rational exchange of views produced some glimmers but mainly nothing useful. ( Notwithstanding that I still peruse, and enjoy the site for other info ) I am totally convinced by PMTS, and debate re alternatives etc just seems to demonstrate confusion - ad hominem arguments, wrong analysis of their own proposed technical model , and a very seriously flawed analysis of PMTS. Although at times I might jump over something using extension, rotate when in a difficult situation etc I regard these largely as showing up limitations in my technique rather than dipping into a wonderful toolbox. In easy conditions one can do almost anything and make it "look good". In very difficult steep skiing pedal hop turns can be understood and done using PMTS fundamentals.
Last edited by blackthorn on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strangely familiar

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:20 pm

PSIA is an open book methodology. It's not confusing if you understand their methods and how they want to describe them. If you don't buy in and don't have their false expectations, you will be fine with PSIA. However, what makes PSIA confusing is when you think or believe it's system will produce the results you want in your skiing. The answer is simple. PSIA methodology doesn't produce what they say it does. Not even their own demo team produces what they say their system should. Therefore yes, it's confusing to many, especially those trying to learn to ski at the advanced levels using it. They are very confused. They are confused because they are trying to ski well but don't have the tools. Until they realize the tools aren't there; they will stay confused and frustrated.
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