PSIA ramblings and confusion!

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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby LiquidFeet » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:24 pm

Max_501 wrote:
LiquidFeet wrote:As I mentioned upthread, the moderators removed my post because it looked like I was promoting sales, not because it was sales for PMTS material. They allowed me to repost it without the link.


Thank you for sharing your experience which appears to confirm the anti PMTS bias that Heluva and Todd discussed earlier. Isn't it interesting that they would ask you to remove a link when the purpose was to help interested readers avoid the hassle of locating the book on their own? Meanwhile that forum has many other posts with links to NON-PMTS products and services.

True, they do often allow links.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby LiquidFeet » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 am

Well, the post on PugSki that prompted my previous post just had its link for buying something deleted. The post is still there without the link. That post was from a shop that is a sponsor on that forum.

So the mods there must be trying to be consistent about disallowing links for buying stuff.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:14 am

Liquidfeet, maybe you are right but then there are posts like this:

https://www.pugski.com/threads/2-3-day- ... ost-121945

Would they allow you to create a post with links to PMTS camps?
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby LiquidFeet » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:55 am

I suspect that they are more touchy about PMTS stuff than about other topics.
There's an adversarial relationship between PMTS and everyone not PMTS, as you know well.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:42 pm

LiquidFeet wrote:There's an adversarial relationship between PMTS and everyone not PMTS, as you know well.


This is FALSE. I take offense to it actually. As a skier and periodic coach who is working entirely with "non-PMTS skiers" why would I start the relationship as an adversarial one when I want to help them improve their skiing (ESPECIALLY the junior racers I work with)? The relationship should be one of encouragement and building the skier up so they want to improve the RIGHT way.

I've had plenty of less-than-positive interactions with people over the years... but primarily with big egos that had closed minds and couldn't walk the walk, but loved to talk the talk, frequently taking special aim at discrediting PMTS and anyone using the system to improve their skiing. I'm happy to call those types on their nonsense, especially when it may be to the detriment of skiers who could otherwise be set in a better direction.

Lastly, that site was started on the premise of encouraging a positive dialogue, and it remained positive until THEY made it adversarial. They fired the first shots. Let's look at the events... information is freely offered and the response is ban the message and ban mention of the source. Censorship in its purest form... which they may have the right to do on their website, but it doesn't make it right.

In the REAL skiing world it is rarely, if-ever, adversarial. In my experience, most people are pretty happy to get the opportunity to pick my brain... and the same can be said for any of the PMTS coaches who hang around here or coach at camps. They are knowledgeable and professional (they are NOT adversarial)... those who claim otherwise are threatened by the message.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby LiquidFeet » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:04 am

Heluva, I was talking in generalities, not specifically about anything that happened between you and anyone at that other forum. Did the blow-up happen because of the Technical Models thread? That was an interesting thread. I participated in it. From what I read, everyone in that thread posted with genuine civility, despite differences of opinion. Maybe the mods deleted some stuff?

I read here every day, and I read that other forum every day. I find the technical information here terrific. Thank you! It far surpasses anything offered officially by PSIA. But some of the posts at that other forum also far surpass what PSIA offers in its official resources.

I read people here "putting down" non-PMTS instructors who do not display the technical movements or understanding that this site admires. There is often derision, mockery, and contempt in such posts. I read this quite often. People here clearly enjoy posting this type of observation, and I can tell that they feel justified displaying this kind of attitude towards the "enemy."

The situation is what it is, and I don't see anyone on either side working to bridge the gap between PMTS and everyone not-PMTS. I don't think it should come as a surprise that both sides are sensitive to the ongoing negativity, that's all I was saying. There is an adversarial relationship. I'm flummoxed that you are not aware of it.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby skijim13 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:27 am

Liquid feet, many people from this forum are students of the PSIA or have PSIA background and came here because the current system was not giving them the performance in their skiing they wanted. I always had the desire to improve my skiing and decided the best route would be to become a ski instructor to improve my skiing with all the free training they gave. However, I found like many instructors that you will have some improvements in your skiing but hit a point where you don't improve anymore. Many of my PSIA friends always would say that if you raced as a child you would be more likely to make Level III due to early training. I came to the conclusion that many high level PSIA skiers still use some racing movements that enables them to ski at a higher level that someone completely following the current PSIA model. I came to PMTS and found that it gave me the roadmap to understand skiing and improve my skiing. However, I find that my PSIA friends look at my skiing as old school and not at the high level they believe their fully certified instructors ski at. I think the issue is that the PSIA believes that their system is expert skiing and only when you wear the Level III pin you are a high level skier. Many ski instructors will not even ski with you if you don't work at the ski school in fear you will learn something from them.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby DougD » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:37 am

LiquidFeet wrote:I read people here "putting down" non-PMTS instructors who do not display the technical movements or understanding that this site admires. There is often derision, mockery, and contempt in such posts. I read this quite often. People here clearly enjoy posting this type of observation, and I can tell that they feel justified displaying this kind of attitude towards the "enemy."

LiquidFeet,

It's not that they lack effective skiing movements. It's that they lack effective skiing movements, know that they lack effective skiing movements, yet hold themselves out to the public as instructors and models of good skiing.

The situation is what it is, and I don't see anyone on either side working to bridge the gap between PMTS and everyone not-PMTS.

The PSIA hierarchy is well aware of how much better they could be. They invited Harald to join their Demo Team decades ago... then pointedly refused for two years to learn anything from him. At that moment, PSIA's support of bad skiing - however innocent it may previously have been - descended into hypocrisy founded in group-think.

PSIA knowingly damages the sport and the industry. More important, it wastes the skiing public's time, money and effort while putting them at increased risk of potentially debilitating injuries. This isn't a theoretical rant. It is my personal experience over 35 years of skiing grounded in PSIA methods. Their instructors (including Level IIIs... supposedly the best) taught me ineffective movements that limited my skiing and aggravated a prior knee injury. Even when I told them about the knee injury and specifically requested alignment and skiing advice, they offered meaningless alignment mumbo-jumbo and the same old rotary "skills" crap. Ever try rotating in bumps or deep/heavy snow with a weak knee? The only reason I didn't wreck it was that I was smart enough NOT to follow that advice, even though I'd paid for it.

Lito showed skiers a better way in 1985... 33 years ago. No one at PSIA paid any attention. If it weren't for his seminal articles, I'd have needed knee surgery or I would't be skiing at all.

Harald showed skiers an even better way in 1995 (if not earlier)... 23 years ago. PSIA ignored that too. They're still ignoring it. Yet Diana spotted my knee problem (with no prompting from me) the instant I walked into the shop. She fixed it forever (for skiing purposes) in less than an hour. This cost me about $150, roughly one gazillionth of the money I wasted on PSIA uselessness over the previous three decades.

The movements I did absorb from PSIA, like stemming and extension, have been ingrained for so long that I don't have enough skiing years left to fully unlearn them. I'm nearly 64 years old. If I ski til I'm 80 I'll never be the skier I might have been with better instruction. Harald, Diana and Walter profoundly altered my skiing in one week at camp. If I'd had anything resembling that instruction 20+ years earlier, I'd be a healthier and more accomplished skier today.

PSIA knowingly ignores publicaly available information that would dramatically improve the experience and health of their customers. That organizational behavior deserves contempt.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby HeluvaSkier » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:18 am

LiquidFeet wrote:Did the blow-up happen because of the Technical Models thread?


There was no blow up, no major arguments, etc... no need to 'step in' that I ever saw. I had been enjoying that there was a more open, non-adversarial culture.

LiquidFeet wrote:I read people here "putting down" non-PMTS instructors who do not display the technical movements or understanding that this site admires. There is often derision, mockery, and contempt in such posts. I read this quite often. People here clearly enjoy posting this type of observation, and I can tell that they feel justified displaying this kind of attitude towards the "enemy."


LF, the observation you describe is usually that of a demo-team level (or other similarly high-ranking) instructor, who is publicly stating "I'm the expert, this is how you ski, let me show you how to do it" (choose any PSIA video at random). However when we break down the skiing that is displayed, looking at the movements being made, and compare them with the movements that the best racers make (arguably the most technical skiers on the planet), THEY AREN'T THE SAME. Not only will those types of people refuse to explain or even admit to the discrepancy, they go so far as to claim that there is no difference!

Should these people be beyond reproach? They are within PSIA, but not here... and not in any environment where REAL skiing performance is being targeted (e.g. racing). System agnostic... they are not using the same movements that the best skiers use. Period. Movements are movements... we are either flexing or extending, tipping or steering, rotating or countering, balanced on the outside ski or not... we can't have it both ways. Accepted imperfections in a racer's technique should not be confused with the ideal targeted technique (e.g. what they are shooting for). I alluded to this in the 'technical models' thread you referenced as well as the 'what does it take' thread.

A statement of fact should not be viewed as adversarial unless something is trying to be hidden, covered up or ignored. I went on to say that the difference doesn't matter as long as you're up-front and honest about the desired outcome... e.g.) If you want to ski like a PSIA d-team member you're going to do a different set of 'things' than you would if you want to ski like a WC SL skier. If PSIA said to racers, I'm sorry, we don't ski that way, we can't train you... I don't think there would be any controversy. Instead, PSIA teaches their fundamentals to USSA [skills quest] as the path to achieving high-level race technique.

LiquidFeet wrote:The situation is what it is, and I don't see anyone on either side working to bridge the gap between PMTS and everyone not-PMTS. I don't think it should come as a surprise that both sides are sensitive to the ongoing negativity, that's all I was saying. There is an adversarial relationship. I'm flummoxed that you are not aware of it.


I am not unaware of the relationship, however, talking like there is some kind of on-going war does nothing but put people on the defensive. I'd rather have people eager to learn where it is possible, ignore those with closed minds and have truthful, open dialogue about what those who are in positions of authority are really doing in practice. I acknowledge the differences. This is the first step to bridging any gap... the realization that we are not doing the same thing. When I make short turns next to most PSIA instructors who are also making short turns - they don't look the same. The fundamentals are different. I don't care if PSIA never changes, however, when they claim to be doing something they are not, or are representing themselves or what they teach as something they/it are not, I take issue (e.g. the fallacy that wedge turn contains all of the same fundamentals as an expert turn... maybe an 'expert' PSIA turn... but certainly not an expert SL or GS turn - not even close). I take even further issue when the wrong fundamentals are taught to, for example, junior racers, and portrayed as racing fundamentals (e.g. the right way to do things) by these same people.

Sure a high level of skiing competency can be reached using movements that are different from what PMTS teaches, but we [collectively] need to be honest about the fundamental differences and what the result is when we focus on one set of fundamentals versus another set of fundamentals (Jon Ballou and Eric Lipton certainly don't suck at skiing... they both ski at a level any skier would be elated to achieve, but let's be honest, they don't look like HH, Reilly, Mikaela or Hirscher when they make turns). Once this reality is confronted by 'the other side', a healthier dialogue is going to take place. In my experience, PMTS-trained skiers have a better grasp of PSIA fundamentals than PSIA-trained skiers do... because we have studied and understand the differences. [Ask Max_501 and jbotti about the time I demoed carved medium radius turns using extension for them... it is EASY]

In my case, when I work with a traditionally-taught racer, I focus on getting them on the right track, focused on the right fundamentals and thinking about skiing through the right frame of reference... as opposed to telling them how they have spent their entire skiing career being taught the wrong things. Would you rather hear "I can help you ski a slalom course faster" or "You suck at slalom because you're doing everything wrong"? Which approach will ignite a passion to want to improve The same logic can be applied to bumps, short turns, off-piste... etc. As an expert [PMTS] skier and periodic coach, I may be part ambassador for PMTS, but most people don't care about acronyms - they just care about skiing better... so I am really an ambassador for the sport. The skiing and results... well, they speak for themselves.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby LiquidFeet » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:53 pm

Helluva,
Thanks for the well-though-out response.

You ask at the end, Would you rather hear "I can help you ski a slalom course faster" or "You suck at slalom because you're doing everything wrong"? Which approach will ignite a passion to want to improve The same logic can be applied to bumps, short turns, off-piste... etc. As an expert [PMTS] skier and periodic coach, I may be part ambassador for PMTS, but most people don't care about acronyms - they just care about skiing better... so I am really an ambassador for the sport. The skiing and results... well, they speak for themselves.

I'd rather hear the positive statement, of course. My point exactly. You are right, most people don't care about acronyms, they just want to ski better so they get more enjoyment and less frustration out of their ski days. I'm all for that.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby ToddW » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:38 pm

LiquidFeet wrote:I read people here "putting down" non-PMTS instructors who do not display the technical movements or understanding that this site admires. There is often derision, mockery, and contempt in such posts. I read this quite often. People here clearly enjoy posting this type of observation, and I can tell that they feel justified displaying this kind of attitude towards the "enemy."


LiquidFeet,

I don't think "enjoy" is the right word for it. Most of what you're seeing is customer feedback to the nation's ski schools and to the PSIA organization which is a symbiote with them. When a sector of an industry loses its most promising customers and they provide this sort of ugly feedback, it would behoove that corner of the industry to take a deep, honest look in the mirror. Instead, you've stuck your collective head in the sand.

Very few people come to PMTS directly; most have prior experience with more conventional instruction. Upon discovering PMTS or other effective coaching, many become angry when they realize how very little their money and time invested in conventional ski schools bought them and what riches they could have gotten for far less. (Not to mention how hard it is to unlearn bad motor "skills.") It's true that many individual instructors in conventional instruction are well-meaning, but that doesn't change the fact that they are parts in a giant machine that takes in "nonskiers" plus their money and spits out "nonskiers" separated from their money.

You're not hearing outsiders sniping at the establishment because they enjoy it. You're hearing feedback from former customers whom y'all've hurt (and from skiing professionals who understand these facts.)

I doubt this is what you wanted to hear, but sometimes the truth hurts.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby LiquidFeet » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:06 pm

Thank you Todd for that very informative, mature, and civil post. I know my place now.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby Vailsteve » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 pm

.

This quote is simply outstanding from Greg (Heluva):

“Movements are movements... we are either flexing or extending, tipping or steering, rotating or countering, balanced on the outside ski or not... we can't have it both ways.”

Sums up my views perfectly! Now if only I could actually do this <grin>...

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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby h.harb » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:05 pm

To me it's a question of honesty. When I do analysis of the PSIA Demo Team I state the obvious movements and demonstrate where their skiing falls apart. Everyone and anyone has a right to do that, just like I compare Hirscher to Kristoffersen.

I know their movements are totally different from PMTS and the World Cup skiers. That's not the issue, yet PSIA wants to tell people that what they teach will get them to a more advanced or expert level. That's just not true. Even their best athletes as Greg said, don't ski like we do, they have learned to improvise a form of skiing with the PSIA method.

Is it an athletic form of skiing? Sure. Is it the best way or efficient, no. And in that lies the crux of the issue for the regular skier or even PSIA instructor. If you are not an above average athlete you will never ski like their examiners want you to, no matter how many years you put in. With the PSIA methods you can rarely advance your skiing. So there are only two things I can come up with that can be said about PSIA's, skiing and teaching, they are either blind, or dishonest. You make the determination for yourself.
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Re: PSIA ramblings and confusion!

Postby dewdman42 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:06 pm

:!:
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