flexing to release video

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Re: flexing to release video

Postby l2ski » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:06 am

geoffda wrote:If the thought is that "hey, this video shows instructors are cactching on," well, that is just wrong. Like I said, even people who think they get it usually don't. And if you can't ski it, you definitely don't get it. When ski schools start requiring their directors to be PMTS certfied and they start teaching a pure PMTS curriculum, then you can say things are changing. Sprinkling a few movements (or the Phantom move) into the mix isn't a sign of understanding--it is actually a sign of lack of understanding. Anyone who isn't teaching straight up Essentials, nothing more, nothing less, doesn't get it and isn't worth listening to.

If you want a good video of racers flexing in transition, just go grab Stefano Gross, Marcel Hirscher, or Mikaela Shiffrin running slalom on YouTube and play it back in VLC Media Player so you an slow it down. There is no need to watch this video since the analysis isn't correct.

I should have also said that the instruction is not correct.
When I saw the video, my first thought was to direct the author to the harbskisystems.
But I thought this video is a good example of PMTS essentials and wanted to test my PMTS eyes by posting it here.

I'm 100% all about PMTS; this forum and the Harald's books are my only source for ski instruction.
I understand that good skiing requires all of the essentials at work. Missing one impacts everything else.
I'm grateful for this forum and the free information available, but it can be also frustrating
since in practice I'm on my own.
Right now I don't even have a reliable camera man; I purchased a Soloshot 3
so hopefully that will work for me during the next few weeks and I'll post some video here.
I'd love to be able to take my 6 and 4 year old to a ski resort and put them in ski school
but I will not do it because none of the ski schools in my area use PMTS. Right now I'm taking them a few times
a season to the local hill and I'm sweating bullets trying to teach them something and make it fun for them.
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Re: flexing to release video

Postby Vailsteve » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:59 pm

l2ski wrote:
geoffda wrote:I'd love to be able to take my 6 and 4 year old to a ski resort and put them in ski school
but I will not do it because none of the ski schools in my area use PMTS. Right now I'm taking them a few times
a season to the local hill and I'm sweating bullets trying to teach them something and make it fun for them.

While I fully understand the sentiment about not learning PMTS from the get go, may I say that most kids at that age simply do not have the necessary motor skills, or balance skills, to be able to lift and tip the inside foot and/ or balance in the outside ski — which as we all know, is the basis of PMTS.

And while I am no expert on teaching very young kids, I do have a 4 year old grandson, Tobin— with sister Reilly coming in at 18 months. They live in TX and come to Vail with Mom and Dad for two weeks every February. I have had Tobin on skis for two seasons now. The first year was literally just putting skis on him and letting him slide down the driveway, catching him as he came down. No turns or anything— just getting him used to sliding on snow ( and the cold weather!).

Last year, when he was 3, I did put him into ski school for three days —PRIMARILY for the social interaction. Kids learn from one another. And when one kid is laughing his or her head off because they are falling and having FUN, it is contagious.

I was not concerned at all about technique, I just wanted him to have fun — and associate sliding, falling, cold weather, etc with FUN.

This year, at 4, Tobin is ready for some skills. He is quite the bike rider now — no training wheels at all, meaning his balance is quite good. While I hate the wedge, I believe most kids at this age need both skis on the ground. My goal is for him to be able to use turn shape— turn UP the hill to slow down, versus using the wedge to slow down. To that end we will do a bunch of garland drills and as little pizza as possible on the bunny slopes. We will play with our edges ( duck walk), red light green light and other games.

But again, no real “PMTS” movements, but plenty of emphasis on just having fun. And yes I will put him in ski school for three days again so he can interact with other kids. Reilly is too young for ski school, but we will get her sliding on skis this season as well.

Again I not an expert on teaching young kids. Harald, Diana and/or Heluva deal with kids much more than I, and maybe they can chime in. But congrats on getting your kids on snow. They will always remember the times they skied with Dad — or Papa Steve in my case!

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Re: flexing to release video

Postby dewdman42 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:24 pm


Tell the young kids to imagine they have a cup of cocoa sitting on top of the ski and to "tip the cocoa", to pour the cocoa out onto the snow. by this you can at least get them to be tipping their new inside foot and activating that movement. it doesn't matter whether they are lifting it and balancing on the other one yet. At that age they also barely understand about left and right, inside/outside etc, their cognitive abilities aren't there yet. So you have to lead them around and tipping your own cocoa in the right way towards the direction you're turning and get them doing it too, monkey see, monkey do. Keep it simple, but get them tipping the cocoa!

I agree with your sentiment about keeping them out of ski school, if they are young they will be taught to wedge if they are older and making french fries they will be taught to twist their feet all over the place. On the other hand, ski school can be fun for the kids and motivate them, but its hard to find the right teacher you can trust with that.
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Re: flexing to release video

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:59 pm

It's not the system, it's the teacher. I've taught plenty of 4 to 6 year olds PMTS with immediate success. To do this correctly you must understand development phases of kids and also how, you access their motivation, movement and balancing ability. My standard statement; Any kid that can go straight down a green blue slope in a wedge, can ski parallel. People "highly" underestimate kids, mostly because they don't know how to access their movements with the adult approach, the "load them up with information", approach. I don't explain skiing to 4 year olds. I create games, and challenges that are fun for them and while they are performing they are learning correct skiing. The limitations are with the teachers, not the kids. Ask the guys at Welch, they only teach PMTS at Welch to kids that are 4 year olds and older. Starting with indoor games in boots, use a tipping board, create one footed training games. Don't get the kids cold and cranky by taking them outside when you can do almost everything indoors first.

One of the best things you can do as instructor (if you want to be skilled) is to teach PMTS to kids that are 4 years old. Why, because you can't load them up with words, explanations and theory. As the teacher you have to use your imagination and create movement scenarios that incorporate only PMTS movements. Kids mimic, copy and play, use these approaches and they will respond. Kids want to be challenged, so challenge their balance on skis. Teach each step or movement as if they were separate accomplishments.

Adults always want to have kids perform and act out so they satisfy their own goals, and rarely look at what might be fun for a kid. Sure every adult wants to get their kid up the lift and have them ski down along side them. This may not be the most fun for a kid. Take your time, be hands on, do it where there is no traffic or where there are no runs below the practice area. I used a leash with Harrison, never, and I mean never, hold your kids with your own hands or body while skiing. They become immediately dependent and never want to let go. Harrison was skiing parallel turns with straight skis at 5 years old with only about 5 days on snow prior to that. Teaching kids is a totally different game. Adults want to treat them like they should learn like adults, it's just not impossible.
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Re: flexing to release video

Postby Vailsteve » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:17 pm

THANKS Harald!!!!

This is exactly what I needed to proceed with Tobin and Reilly. I will follow this plan... the grandkids will be here in two weeks.
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Re: flexing to release video

Postby blackthorn » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:08 am

Maybe a future book - "Teaching PMTS to kids"

Anyway, HH said
Re-centering has been the least understood movement in skiing, since I was a kid, even today coaches don't study read or educate themselves to know about pulling the feet back.....

I am learning the importance of this in my skiing, mainly from what has been written in PMTS and incorporating it into my turns. PMTS MA allows me to analyse a lot of the movements reasonably well, but I find it hard to see recentering/pulling the feet back movements. On videos I can work out if they have likely occurred by looking at things including ski bend and where the snow is coming away from the ski edge, and by seeing faults that may indicate lack of the move such as tails washing out. This is much harder in real time.
If people ask me to show them what I mean by recentering/pulling feet back during a turn I find this difficult. Usually I show them while I am standing still, then yell at them at the appropriate time in the turn. Once they get it they like the result.
For years I was told to get my weight forward, but no-one could really tell me how. I would crouch more and lean my torso more which generally was counterproductive for this of course but I felt I was trying harder.
(I still feel that the oft repeated advice to start with page 1 ACBAES 1 is the best for those who really want to succeed, but most of my friends who like what they see in my skiing, just want a series of handy hints.)
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Re: flexing to release video

Postby RRT » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:12 pm

The main topic here is taking a bit of a turn (no pun intended) but for what it's worth, I like to immediately pull or jerk both feet back while on the downramp the moment I get off the chair. It's amazing how smoothly and nicely one can turn over those New England ice patches that form as a result of skier after skier getting off the lift onto the same area. Once I do that, then I repeat the same pull back motion until I come to a stop. It's kind of a reminder to get off to the right start and then attempt to employ it in all my turns or at least most to the end of the run. Plus, if you ain't feelin' it, you ain't doin' it and when you do it, it's true, the skiing comes under a whole new level of ease and control.
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