PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby h.harb » Mon May 16, 2016 11:56 am

This is typical PSIA wording. Why do they use this kind of wording?

For two reasons, if one of their instructors, trainers and examiners makes a total blunder while teaching or training; they have all kinds of ways to slide out of trouble, by using confusing definitions to justify.

The other reason is when they examine instructors for certification PSIA and it's examiners have lots of wiggle room to either fail or pass candidates.

The biggest difference between PSIA and PMTS is we define movements and when you define movements, and explain exactly what they are, you can easily identify if a movement is being made or not. There is no subjectivity, with PMTS it's fair and it's accurate.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby Vailsteve » Tue May 17, 2016 3:25 pm

Yup. Hh is so right...the capriciousness of PSIA examiners is well known among ski school instructors...at least at Vail. Which is why you see so many "good" skiers (or as HH says... very good bad skiers) absolutely change their style during exams to Ski like the examiner. This is especially true for cert three. So so political...

I routinely ski with several instructors who know and have personally skied with HH during his USA demo team days, or his time at Winterpark. Jerry S is close to 70 now and he still rips. Rick R s one of the prettiest skiers on Vail Mountain. While they may say and think Hh is an a$$, All say HH absolutely made them better skiers.

I also ski with one of the 2017 demo team candidates shown on the you tube video. While he is not PMTS, you should see him in free skiing black and double black bumps. His foot pullback and "flexed Knees to his chest" rivals max 501.

At the age of 60 now, I really couldn't care less about which system creates "better" skiers. Too subjective..and not worth the flame wars. There are good skiers from all over.

For me, PMTS has totally changed the way I ski-- and PMTS movements will allow me to ski deep into my 70's. Knowing I can ski for another decade plus makes me very happy-- and makes all the pain of doing drills worthwhile!! (Thanks Diana and geoffda!).

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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby h.harb » Wed May 18, 2016 1:46 pm

Steve with all due respect and I know you are a PMTS supporter, however your evaluation of a Demo Team skier at Vail, has little resonance with me. In your context of skiing, sure you are impressed with their skiing, I can see why because "they" (demo team) maybe some of the better "instructor" skiers at Vail. However, that's a relatively low standard, compared to the international level. As far as supervisors, and instructors there, I trained some of the supervisors. I know the levels very well. Even Rick, he didn't make it out of the Colorado demo team tryouts. And that was after I helped his skiing change. However as soon as they lay off the real movements, for a few weeks, they go right back to skiing TT. They are not in the same league as higher level PMTS skiers.

My frame of reference is different than yours, it is first hand, it is from skiing directly with the best skiers in the world and then skiing with PSIA Demo Team and Vail instructors. And there is a huge difference. I don't think I have to put up video of US Demo Team skiing to prove my point again do I?

In your defense, I can see how you would be impressed with some of the athleticism of the skiers you watch, but that is not always a standard that will carry a skier to the highest levels. Using Reilly as an example, he can ski on very difficult terrain and make it look easy and like he's not working hard or recovering, that's the mark of a true high level skier. When I watch US demo Team try outs, even this yea, I saw them all. It's one linked recovery after another. It may look spectacular for awhile, but compared to good skiers, this doesn't hold up.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby h.harb » Wed May 18, 2016 1:48 pm

BTW, them thinking I'm an ass, is confirmation to me that they still don't like my criticizing of their skiing and of PSIA's skiing in general. So it's a compliment. Thanks. I know there are many PSIA lurkers on this forum, a dose of reality is good for the soul.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby Vailsteve » Wed May 18, 2016 7:16 pm

HI Harald:

Thanks for the long reply. You may very be right...I may not have a good enough eye to discern good skiing As some of you may know, I came to skiing late in life. I was able to retire at 54 after doing four startups in Silicon Valley and Boulder. We bought our retirement home in Vail in 2009 and I started to learn to ski that 09/10 season. Like most, I started with lessons at Vail and Breck. I liked it, but I know something was not quite right. So, as an engineer, I did what I always do-- research, research and more research. I first found out about LIto Tito Flores, and thru his books, I found about about this guy called Harald Harb. Went to Youtube and Holy $hit, this guy can ski!!!. And his movement-based approach made PERFECT sense. So four years ago, I began my journey into PMTS while simultaneously getting my certification to teach at Vail. (Which I did....)

As everyone here knows, you have to choose I did...

Please let me say I am NOT NOT NOT a PSIA supporter. I am not a fan at all of their teaching progression. And I no use for their mushy pablum on "how to ski". I have not been a PSIA member for three years now. (I was for the first two... ). Truth be told, I have been "de-certified" (but who cares...). Fortunately, the ski school supervisors like the way I interact with the guests, and let me teach when and if I want. I do not get ANY grief when I incorporate PMTS movements into my teaching. Heck, I am even called on to demonstrate Javelin turns to incoming instructors! And like I have posted before, there are at least 4 of us who practice PMTS movements during our morning milk runs. Bottom line, I LIKE Vail.. I like the mountain, I like the people I work with.

Let me also say Harald is flat out the best skier I have EVER seen in person. (Although watching Ted Ligety carve a turn from 15 feet way as a Gate Judge and Talon Crew member at the 2015 Worlds at Beaver Creek was pretty neat!). But I stand by what I said... there are a lot of good skiers out there. This forum has showcased selected skiers from Korea, Japan, Austria, Australia, etc. I watch their videos as closely as I watch Harald's and Diana's. I am not sure that these skies were formally PMTS trained, but they all do utilize PMTS movements.

I will never be as good a skier as Harald, Diana, Geoffda, et all. Started too late.. and basically I am still total non-athletic engineer nerd. But I can and will better. This past 2015/16 season has shown you can ski 105 days with a half inch hole in ones heart (shunting blood between the atrial chambers and bypassing the lungs, net minimal oxygen getting to the legs...). This was all due to PMTS. Harald has written extensively about the requirement and/or ability to RELAX and flex into a turn... boy do I get that now. There is no way PSIA roatary movements would work.

Anyway, thanks again Harald. My eye will get better!

VAILSTEVE

PS... I knew the A$$ comment would get a response!. It is a compliment. It is never easy to receive criticism even when warranted when they themselves perceive their job is to criticise.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby skijim13 » Thu May 19, 2016 4:08 am

Steve,
Having a PSIA background and learning PMTS I agree with Harald about the Demo team skiers, while they may ski better than the general ski instructors and the general public but don't come close to a top level PMTS skier. Today I renewed my PSIA membership (I stopped teaching since if you teach wedge turns it comes out in your free skiing) but kept our membership for the great benefits that my wife and I get with lift tickets when we travel. I opened the website and the video tip of the week to improve your skiing on steeps and chutes was using hop turns and did not even talk about changing edges or getting your skis on edge. On a steep run why would you want to jump off the snow and disconnect yourself from it? This year both my wife and I need to take 12 credits I am sure the PSIA trainer will not like the way we ski.

Steve,
I agree Harald and Dianna and the other coaches is how I want to ski, and makes you want to keep going back to camps as you see the improvements in your skiing.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby h.harb » Thu May 19, 2016 8:59 am

Steve thanks for the reply. I'm just trying to keep some persecutive on the reality of skiing, because it is so distorted. PSIA instructors lost this persecutive a long time ago, and they almost always over rate their level, and the level they see. They live in a diminished, self endorsed, artificially created, world of skiing. And this is probably due to a survival necessity. If they were really "honest" and saw the truth, it would be too devastating for them. They would lose respect for their certifications and their trainers and examiners, so you have to keep the illusion going.

I just had a conversation with one of our friends who did something similar to you, he started teaching. He told me, he always thought I was exaggerating the poor skiing and teaching of PSIA, for marketing purposes, to promote PMTS. After he saw it for himself he told me he was amazed at how I right I am. He said quote: "it is as bad as you say it is". Is this vindication? No. I was in it at the highest level; I saw it first hand, and it's all a scam. The blue pill or the red pill take your choice. It's so much easier to live in fantasy world, rather than work hard and learn how to be expert at your chosen sport.

I don't exaggerate about skiing levels, I keep it in perspective. The persecutive I have runs the gambit; from knowing what the best in the world are doing and are capable of doing, to the Green Level skiers that want to improve. And I've coached the best. This gives me a unique persecutive that few have. I just don't want PMTS skiers to start exaggerating the quality of skiing when it is not here. Again athletic skiing isn't always good skiing or skiing right.
To quote Warren Witherall: "There are many good, really bad skiers out there."
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby Vailsteve » Thu May 19, 2016 6:57 pm

Cannot disagree with Harald's comments. PSIA skiing really is a shame. But, with heart surgery now done, I have been on the bike and hiking Berrypicker up to eagles nest. The 2016/17 season will be here in no time!!

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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby skijim13 » Fri May 20, 2016 4:12 am

Sad that Aspen charge $ 900.00 for a full day lesson with a PSIA instructor, for a little more you can go to a camp for a full week and really learn how to improve your skiing. The word is getting out and the camps have filled up in less than a week, I am sure if double the amount of camps were given they would fill up also. Sad that the mountains still use PSIA and not PMTS. Skiing would grow again if beginners found skiing fun and easy to learn.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby pzotalis » Fri May 20, 2016 7:10 am

In my experience watching what PSIA puts out there, seeing it in-person, and getting to know several PSIA ed staff people personally, there are many factors in play here in why they ski the way they do and why they carry the attitude they do. Here are 3 that come to mind in my experience.
1. Ego - they have very large ones and because of those large egos they are blind, narrow-minded, and own an enormous sense of entitlement. It's really not their fault, they have been conditioned to act that way from PSIA leadership over the years.

2. Laziness - PSIA trains and conditions it's members to look at PSIA ed staff and demo team as ski gods. Therefore, there is no incentive to improve or think that they should change their skiing or teaching ability. If you have already convinced yourself that you are a ski god and have convinced others that you are ski god, why change?

3. Ski Area GM's and Owners have enabled them - It's a lot like young kids who misbehave. If the parents let them act that way, can you blame the kids? No, it's the parent's fault. Same deal here in the ski industry. Ski Area managers and ownership have allowed this behavior and substandard/embarrassing product from PSIA for years and in my view it's the main reason why we have an issue with growing the sport and beginner conversion. PSIA provides a broken teaching system, a culture of self-serving behavior, a complete lack of understanding in basic biomechanics of skiing & movement-based coaching, and no clue for real customer service. The industry doesn't focus on these things when it comes to looking at reasons why we can't grow the sport. Instead, they focus on finding new marketing gimmicks that ignores the real problem. The real problem is that the ski industry allows the self-proclaimed "Snow Pros" to ruin the beginner, intermediate, and expert level lesson experience. As a result, they are taking people (customers) away from the sport.

Here at Welch Village in MN we left PSIA 4 years ago. It's hard work being a PMTS Accredited Ski Area. Really hard work. Without my team of dedicated ski instructors, race coaches, and managers it wouldn't be possible. But above all, the ski area's GM, me, realized a long-time ago that this is a fragile business and sport. I have no time for egos, laziness, childish behavior when it comes to this sport and my family business. My customers don't have the time either. They work hard for their money so they deserve the best product...and it's PMTS.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby skijim13 » Fri May 20, 2016 8:25 am

Well said about the PSIA, at our mountain I had taught for nine years the current staff thinks that demo team members are skiing Gods. I find it difficult for anyone with eyes not to notice the difference between expert skiing and their skiing. Lorie and I see our fellow ski instructors watching us ski they know it different, think it wrong, but watch and wonder how we make round turns in control. I tried to get them to look at PMTS at our mountain and they would not even talk about it.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby h.harb » Fri May 20, 2016 9:51 am

Both of the last posts tell the story. When I was on the demo team, I never considered myself a ski god. I actually thought is was over blow and fake. Coming from a skiing background that was well beyond the demo team, I didn't look up to them, the team. I evaluated them as skiers and teachers. They didn't look at me as one of them, I was never a ski god either, because I didn't play the game. I wanted to help, bring the demo team to improve, evolve, for a time it was actually happening. Then the PSIA powers from above, stepped in and shut it down, all the progress we made was gone. Back to the dark ages.

I have long conversations with the editor of "Ski Area Management", magazine. He is on board, but doesn't see how to get the NSAA and ski area managers to see the real problem in skiing, which he recognizes is PSIA. The NSAA and ski area operators know they have a problem, but they are so detached from the real issues, they can't figure it out. There are few, if any ski area operators who have a vision and are realistic like Peter. Peter told me his numbers; "skier visits", were down this year. Same in most of the rest of the mid west and the east. But his ski school numbers were up, double digits. Go figure!!!!!!

Nobody said changing a ski school over to become expert at ski instruction was easy. It took 3 years at Winter Park when I was there and the job was far from done. Peter and his staff has done an amazing job, and it's the best ski school in the country; most probably in the world. So if you can't come to a Harb Ski Camp, but if you live near or can get to Minneapolis/St Paul, take a ski lesson at Welch Village and see for yourself.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby DougD » Tue May 24, 2016 8:17 am

h.harb wrote:Peter told me his numbers; "skier visits", were down this year. Same in most of the rest of the mid west and the east. But his ski school numbers were up, double digits. Go figure!!!!!!

Congratulations Peter and Welch Village! If that doesn't demonstrate the value that PMTS could bring to ski schools as profit centers, I can't imagine what would.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby skijim13 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:25 am

Someone just posted the video of the PSIA demo team training at Copper Mountain on a PSIS website (anyone who needs to see it let me know) the skiing is not very good, it seems to either too be getting worse or the more I learn PMTS the more I can see poor skiing. Very sad that these people work a lifetime to make the national demo team and they still don't ski at a high level.
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Re: PSIA Demo Team Tryouts 2017

Postby Jeet » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:31 am

Can I have a look please. I presume you are going PM me?

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