This is great ski

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Re: This is great ski

Postby theorist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:33 pm

Well you may be right jepoupatout (I'll await Max's adjudication :wink: ), but I really like the aggressive retraction of the old stance leg at the end of each turn, which keeps his hips from coming up, thus minimizing the up-and-down motion of his CoM (in the vimeo video, even though he initiates with a retraction, it's not as strong [and I think not held for as long], so you'll see his hips come up). Also, while I'm limited in my analysis of both videos by my inability to download them (at this time) and thus get frame-by-frame playback, I also thought I saw stronger CB and CA at the transition (as well as strong inside leg tipping, at least on some of the turns) in the latter video.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby jbotti » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:15 am

Hard to call the latest video anything but good skiing. It's not at Harald's level (few are) but it's good skiing.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Max_501 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:24 pm

jbotti wrote:Hard to call the latest video anything but good skiing. It's not at Harald's level (few are) but it's good skiing.


Indeed. One side is stronger than the other but man, he rips!
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Matt » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:22 am

theorist wrote:Well you may be right jepoupatout (I'll await Max's adjudication :wink: ), but I really like the aggressive retraction of the old stance leg at the end of each turn, which keeps his hips from coming up, thus minimizing the up-and-down motion of his CoM (in the vimeo video, even though he initiates with a retraction, it's not as strong [and I think not held for as long], so you'll see his hips come up). Also, while I'm limited in my analysis of both videos by my inability to download them (at this time) and thus get frame-by-frame playback, I also thought I saw stronger CB and CA at the transition (as well as strong inside leg tipping, at least on some of the turns) in the latter video.


As far as I understand up-and-down motion of the CoM is OK as long as it does not come from pushing. If you have float the CoM goes up and down by definition.

Also in general I think a powerful retraction is a sign on CoM going up and down more than if you have a more progressive release/transition. If you keep your CoM constant throughout the turn the movement would be very slow and progressive.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby theorist » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:46 pm

Matt wrote:As far as I understand up-and-down motion of the CoM is OK as long as it does not come from pushing. If you have float the CoM goes up and down by definition.

Thanks for your comments Matt. That raises an interesting question, about vertical motion of the CoM, which I've posted in the Primary Movements Teaching System forum (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4477&p=45876#p45876).
Matt wrote:Also in general I think a powerful retraction is a sign on CoM going up and down more than if you have a more progressive release/transition. If you keep your CoM constant throughout the turn the movement would be very slow and progressive.

If you're maintaining your frame, and not relaxing the stance leg until just before the transition, I believe you need a very rapid/aggressive contraction as you begin the transition to minimize vertical hip motion; JF is doing all three of these things (maintaining frame, rapid retraction, minimal upward hip motion), as can be seen in this montage from the second video: https://www.flickr.com/photos/83787403@N08/15322198890/. [The reason for this is that, while the movement of your body over the skis at the transition may be slow, the very fact of moving your body over your skis creates a divergence between the direction you're moving and the direction your skis are moving. Depending on how fast you're traveling, this can create a very strong reaction force from the snow, which will literally launch you if it's not properly managed by leg retraction.]

Trying to do a more progressive relaxation in short turns is, I think, problematic -- you lose the energy that puts you into the next turn. Also, there's this from the Instructor Manual, p. Bk-149: "Relaxing can be slow and progressive for longer turns or quick and aggressive for short, energetic turns. In very short, energetic turns, releasing is so quick that the stance leg and foot must get out of the way by using a Phantom Move and perhaps active flexion of the leg."
Last edited by theorist on Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:19 pm, edited 41 times in total.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby theorist » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:53 pm

Max_501 wrote: One side is stronger than the other but man, he rips!


Max, what about my specific analysis of the differences between his skiing in the two videos? It would be great to hear what I got right and wrong, since this would help me refine and improve my MA abilities. [Yes, in both videos he's doing great. And that's why I thought this would be such a nice MA exercise -- there are no obvious (i.e., significant) flaws in his skiing, so evaluating his skiing, and in particular evaluating the differences between these two videos, calls upon a deeper understanding -- an understanding I would like to at some point achieve -- since it requires seeing issues that are of a more subtle nature.]
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Re: This is great ski

Postby theorist » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:07 pm

Also -- and sorry to add one more question to the mix -- but what about JF's mogul skiing starting a little after 2:00 in this video?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us85e6y-NCE#t=197

I like what I see here, but I find it harder to assess whether skiing qualifies as PMTS in the moguls than on groomers, because moguls add an additional requirement: not only does one need to properly time the flex and release, but one also needs to coordinate this with the terrain-- the phantom move needs start just at or before the skis begin to climb the mogul. In this video, it's hard for me to tell whether he's doing this. What I think I'm seeing is that sometimes he does, and sometimes he takes the moguls straight on and then does his tipping in the air, after he crests the mogul (is this what's meant by a "late hit"?). He seems to do the former more with the smaller moguls, and the latter more with the bigger ones.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Max_501 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:42 pm

Unfortunately I just don't have extra time to spend MA-ing non PMTS skiers. What I can tell you is that JF rips. Also as a demo skier there is no telling what he might be showing in any given clip so attempting to sharpen MA skills on this level of skier doing random demos is probably of little use. Instead I'd suggest MA-ing Heluvaskier's recent video because he can interact with you and answer questions about his alignment and what he was working on.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby theorist » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:09 pm

Max_501 wrote:Unfortunately I just don't have extra time to spend MA-ing non PMTS skiers. What I can tell you is that JF rips. Also as a demo skier there is no telling what he might be showing in any given clip so attempting to sharpen MA skills on this level of skier doing random demos is probably of little use. Instead I'd suggest MA-ing Heluvaskier's recent video because he can interact with you and answer questions about his alignment and what he was working on.

Understood, thanks, I'll check out Helluva's video. And, as I mentioned above, I've split off my general question about retraction and posted it as a separate thread in the Primary Movements Teaching System forum.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby krazzy legs » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:26 am

I have friends that teach skiing CSIA & when not teaching ski differently then the way they are teaching kids to ski. They simply do not like the way CSIA wants them to ski so when they are not teaching they do not ski the way CSIA teaches them to ski. Do to insurance the ski instructors are forced to use only CSIA by management. Some of the best skiers on our hill when free skiing are CSIA instructors but they are not skiing the way they teach. The ski instructors that free ski the way they teach when they are not teaching are not good skiers. WARNING if you see a ski instructor ski well when free skiing realize taking a lesson from them is not going to make you a good skier if they are forced to teach you to ski a different way then that which is practical. I have read & watched videos for expert skier 1 , 2 & the essentials this is a far better path to take then trying to learn from CSIA.
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