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Re: This is great ski

Postby blackthorn » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:52 pm

Thanks for your comments Max. There are some related videos from the same trip. I enjoyed watching all four skiing - looking down from the lift and also standing on the piste. As you point out the skier was not necessarily demoing.

I still feel I don't quite understand flex to release completely, although a comment you made above did clarify it a bit for me.

So am I right in saying that in a one footed release turn, the first move is the weight shift to the upper ski LTE, then unweight, flex and tip the lower ski , and also that - there should be no extension of the uphill leg at all until on the BTE. It is this last point that I am concerned about. I ask this because I feel at times I am extending the upper leg a bit as I roll from LTE to BTE ie in transition. I am trying to eliminate it completely.

In a two footed release, then ? no extension of either leg between move from uphill edges to downhill edges, and also no leg extension between point of maximum flexion late in the turn until onto the new turn inside edges, ( or, if in the air then with edges rolled to this side.)
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Re: This is great ski

Postby geoffda » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:11 am

Extension should generally be passive. The stance leg gets pulled long because the center of mass is moving into the new turn. What you want to avoid is actively extending or pushing off either leg to move into the new turn. Transferring balance should never require active extension; just flex the old stance leg. In any release there should be an equal amount of leg flexion at the point where the skis are both flat. The amount of flexion can vary depending on the type of turn. Where people get confused in MA is they see the hips rising and assume that the skier is pushing off. This isn't necessarily the case as it is possible to flex or relax the old stance leg to start the release, but still not flex deeply enough to keep the hips from rising.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Max_501 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:04 am

geoffda wrote:This isn't necessarily the case as it is possible to flex or relax the old stance leg to start the release, but still not flex deeply enough to keep the hips from rising.


Very important point above that readers doing MA often miss. HH has said before that even 1mm of outside leg flexion would be enough to start a release. When learning we suggest working on the full range of motion for flexing but later that will be dialed back.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby blackthorn » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:29 am

Thanks for the last two posts.
I suspect therefore that flex to release/no active extension prior to edge transfer will at times be very difficult to assess in MA.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby rwd » Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:29 pm

blackthorn wrote:Thanks for your comments Max. There are some related videos from the same trip. I enjoyed watching all four skiing - looking down from the lift and also standing on the piste. As you point out the skier was not necessarily demoing.

I still feel I don't quite understand flex to release completely, although a comment you made above did clarify it a bit for me.

So am I right in saying that in a one footed release turn, the first move is the weight shift to the upper ski LTE, then unweight, flex and tip the lower ski , and also that - there should be no extension of the uphill leg at all until on the BTE. It is this last point that I am concerned about. I ask this because I feel at times I am extending the upper leg a bit as I roll from LTE to BTE ie in transition. I am trying to eliminate it completely.

In a two footed release, then ? no extension of either leg between move from uphill edges to downhill edges, and also no leg extension between point of maximum flexion late in the turn until onto the new turn inside edges, ( or, if in the air then with edges rolled to this side.)


Blackthorn: At camp last year Diana had a great exercise to address this issue: she called it LIFT,DROP, and ROLL. We had to break down the turn transition into three separate components: 1. LIFT (the old stance ski, transferring balance to LTE of the new stance ski), 2. DROP (flex, relax the new stance leg), 3. THEN ROLL (tip to the new edges). I had to remind myself during this exercise to flex towards the front of the new stance ski, not drop my hips into the back seat.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Matt » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:15 am

Max_501 wrote:


This is the sample image HH posted for knee drive:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xG8b_JH9C1E/V ... 0%2BPM.png

It is followed by an extension that looks like:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oUNuqwQYwJY/V ... 8%2BPM.png

Compare those images to the video.


What I posted was just a link to Haralds article and the title of the article is "This is not tipping, it is knee driving". The article also has a picture of JF in it and under the picture Harald says: " This is a wedge christie, we don't teach a Wedge Christie at any point in PMTS Direct Parallel. We teach Parallel from the beginning. Any skier at this level should no longer need this movement, it's due to the points I made earlier, it's due to steering, extension, rotation and leaning. These results are not intended by TT skiing, but they are however consequences of TT.

These guys are highly athletic and that's why they can get away with this type of dysfunctional movement. This takes lots of muscle strength, energy and hard hits on the body. That is why regular ski instructors can never learn to ski like this
"

So, you are correct, JF was not used as an example of knee driving, but it is not PMTS either.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Max_501 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:00 am

Matt wrote:The article also has a picture of JF in it and under the picture Harald says...


JF's boots are white so I'm guessing that image is someone else that wears the same uniform.

Matt wrote:So, you are correct, JF was not used as an example of knee driving, but it is not PMTS either.


Earlier I gave a detailed description that covers the differences.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Matt » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:38 pm

This is where I first picked it up. https://m.facebook.com/hrharb/posts/10204129268087906
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Max_501 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:22 pm

Matt wrote:This is where I first picked it up. https://m.facebook.com/hrharb/posts/10204129268087906


Which confirms that none of the images in the blog post you linked in your first post were of JF.

In addition, HH said this in the link you just gave us:

BTW, in some skiing videos I've seen of JF Beaulieu, he skis really well. However in this one, something is missing maybe his boots or his set up.


The point here is to use caution with extrapolating MA across the board. BTW, the detailed description I put up earlier was discussed with HH before I posted it.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby blackthorn » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:11 pm

Harald's most recent entries on HH Blog titled "Transition" have been for me, the clearest and most succinct description of the how, when, why, what to do, and what not to do that I have seen.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby Max_501 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:01 pm

Harald's latest blog entry is a brilliant summary of what has been covered over the years in his PMTS materials and on this forum. Keep in mind that the photos in that blog entry demonstrate an advanced version of the release with significant flexing. For those of you that are working on your own to develop a proper release use the photos/video in Books/DVDs 1 and 2 as your model.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby blackthorn » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:37 pm

Indeed.

I think that for those of us who are trying to teach ourselves there will be differences in emphasis for older ex straight-ski skiers for whom wedeln is not a foreign concept, and newer pushy shaped-ski skiers. Hence back to the PMTS "text books". My problem is 35yrs of the former, and 15yrs of misdirected efforts to the latter.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby blackthorn » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:18 pm

Most of my skiing friends are disinterested in all of this - and there is a wide range of skiing "ability".
So when they say I am skiing well this year and I try and explain PMTS, eyes glaze over - this is OK I guess, but then I think how much better it could be for them.
To a certain extent this Forum is preaching to the converted.
For me it started with a random chance video (HH) and the phantom move.
How can I attract others with short attention spans?
I have had an idea - when I talk to them I will say "I'm skiing with the phantom" ( Lee Falk apologies ). I think that the phantom move really is just the development of a series of movements that develop throughout the turn, but are based on that initial movement.
If we " ski with the phantom " then a lot else may follow naturally - the basic phantom movements continue until later in the turn.
Just an idea, buried in the social chatting posts, and not meant to get in the way of anything else.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby theorist » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:05 pm

This is the last video JF posted of his skiing this summer in NZ. I think this shows even better skiing than one linked at the beginning of this thread. Am I right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK8YmwSEG84

Looking in particular at the short turns starting at ~:50, and considering Max's observations, I'd say he is showing more CB, more CA, and is holding the flexion longer at the top of the turn. And I no longer see the significant inside tracking of his right knee.

Max_501 wrote:IMO, this is great skiing, just a bit different from what I strive for in my turns
When I compare this skiing to what PMTS views as the model I see the following differences that we'd be looking for:
1) More CB
2) More CA
3) Holding flexion a bit longer at top of the turn
4) Possibly a stronger pullback (I say possibly because it looks like he is playing with jetting from the tail for more of a dynamic entry into the new turn). It's clear that he can pull the skis back when needed (note the numerous frames where the tips are lower than the tails during the transition).
5) Holding the inside foot against the outside boot (might not be needed with increased CB).
For alignment it looks like the right knee is tracking too far to the inside.
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Re: This is great ski

Postby jepoupatout » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:44 pm

I have to desagree with you Theorist, on that video he was not as strong, felt on his inside ski too much, was less stable and showed something weird with his arm.
This is not as great , at least from my point of you.
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