Myth Busters - Topic Split

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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby Max_501 » Mon May 12, 2014 8:39 pm

theorist wrote:I'm suggesting that Lipton, while not PMTS for (2), could be PMTS for (1) -- i.e., that he has some of the PMTS "building blocks" in his skiing.


One thing you mentioned was fore/aft but is what you are seeing the same thing as taught in PMTS? Read this thread for additional info:

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=4261&p=43754

Next go back and review the video. At what timestamps are you seeing the feet being pulled back?

Other things to consider for PMTS MA:

Is the stance width appropriate for the size of the skier?
Does the release start by flexing the outside leg?
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Are the feet pulled back at transition?
Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn?
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement?
Strong inside arm?
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses?
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses?
Does LTE tipping of the inside foot continue throughout the turn?
Is the skier balanced over the outside ski?
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing?
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby theorist » Tue May 13, 2014 12:15 am

Max_501 wrote:
theorist wrote:I'm suggesting that Lipton, while not PMTS for (2), could be PMTS for (1) -- i.e., that he has some of the PMTS "building blocks" in his skiing.

Next go back and review the video. At what timestamps are you seeing the feet being pulled back?

As an example of what I was seeing, I made a photo montage of his skiing between 12 and 13 secs: https://www.flickr.com/photos/83787403@N08/14195451723/
In frames 1-5, he moves his feet forward as he finishes a turn. Then, in frames 5 - 8 (and particularly in going from frame 5 to 6), he pulls the feet back under him as he initiates the next turn.

There's a also good camera angle at the transition from a right turn to a left turn that takes places as the time stamp changes from 28-29 secs, that shows this pull-back.
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Re: Myth Busters - Topic Split

Postby Max_501 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:43 am

In your montage the knee flexes between frames 5 and 6 and there appears to be some pullback at that point. Is this the typical movement pattern found in the video? What happens after frame 6? What does PMTS teach for the top of the turn?
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Re: Myth Busters - Topic Split

Postby theorist » Tue May 13, 2014 6:53 pm

Max_501 wrote:In your montage the knee flexes between frames 5 and 6 and there appears to be some pullback at that point. Is this the typical movement pattern found in the video?

That specific movement pattern is not typical for the video -- usually he extends at the transition -- consistent with my statement that he doesn't use PMTS timing (in this case for extension and flexion). However, it is not a fluke either -- Lipton does this on a few occasions in the video -- indicating he does have this within his underlying skill set, should he choose to use it (that's all it was meant to illustrate). What is typical for the video, however (and this is what I was trying to get at) is that throughout it he shows strong dynamic fore-aft balance correction -- most skiers moving that fast over such rough snow would alternate between being rocked back on their heels and folding forward at the waist. Lipton shows none of this. I don't think Lipton could be doing this unless he were micro-controlling his fore-aft balance using foot movement; if he were instead controlling his fore-aft by balance moving his hips and upper body, I believe he'd look very different. [N.B.: you can't see the micro-corrections directly, which is why I had to use the grosser example shown in the montage to illustrate his ability to adjust fore-aft balance via foot movement.]

So how does this relate to PMTS? Well, in Ch. 7 of Essentials, HH breaks down the fore-aft balance Essential into the following progression of skills:

1) The ability to sense fore-aft balance. Lipton clearly has this.
2) The ability to find Home Base. Lipton clearly has this as well.
3) The ability to adjust fore-aft balance using foot movement. I've argued Lipton must have this as well, and at a fairly high level, given the speed and snow conditions.
4) As a refinement of no. 3, the ability to adjust fore-aft balance using single-foot pullback rather than a two foot pull-back. Typically Lipton doesn't show this, as evidenced by the frequent lack of management of inside ski lead.
5) The ability to use no. 4 specifically at the transition, properly timed in coordination with the other Essentials, as part of turn initiation. Lipton doesn't appear to do this, which is why, in broad strokes, his skiing is not PMTS.

So in summary, I would say Lipton has 3 of the 5 components of the PMTS fore-aft Essential. I.e., I would identify these as the areas is which Lipton's skiing is not different from PMTS, even though his overall skiing is (different). OK, teacher, I'm ready to be graded on my assignment :).

Max_501 wrote:What happens after frame 6? What does PMTS teach for the top of the turn?
That's a very broad question -- all sorts of stuff happens after frame 6 (e.g., he doesn't control the rotary forces, lack of CA/CB, etc.); and PMTS teaches a book's worth of material for the top of the turn -- so could you please be more specific?
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Re: Myth Busters - Topic Split

Postby Max_501 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:34 pm

theorist wrote:Well, in Ch. 7 of Essentials, HH breaks down the fore-aft balance Essential into the following progression of skills:

1) The ability to sense fore-aft balance. Lipton clearly has this.
2) The ability to find Home Base. Lipton clearly has this as well.
3) The ability to adjust fore-aft balance using foot movement. I've argued Lipton must have this as well, and at a fairly high level, given the speed and snow conditions.
4) As a refinement of no. 3, the ability to adjust fore-aft balance using single-foot pullback rather than a two foot pull-back. Typically Lipton doesn't show this, as evidenced by the frequent lack of management of inside ski lead.
5) The ability to use no. 4 specifically at the transition, properly timed in coordination with the other Essentials, as part of turn initiation. Lipton doesn't appear to do this, which is why, in broad strokes, his skiing is not PMTS.


Numbers 1 - 3 are basically prereqs for the main part of Fore/Aft Essential which is "free foot management" or the ability to adjust fore/aft balance with the free foot.

Take another look at the video. How often does the skier rely on athletic ability, rather than technique, to achieve balance? How often is the skier in recovery mode?

More importantly, why are you wasting time on this? I fail to see how this analysis will make you a better PMTS skier.
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Re: Myth Busters - Topic Split

Postby jbotti » Tue May 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Theorist, anyone with a third grade education who has read ACBAES 1 and 2 can see clearly that Eric Lipton's skiing is a long ways from PMTS. You have better than a third grade education and you can see that as well. So what is the point and what do you wish to debate? Because from where I sit there really is nothing to debate and spend time on. I don't really care if Eric Lipton can do some of the essentials when he chooses or needs to. Most of the time he is doing something else and that IS how he skis. Why are you wasting your and our time on this. Again as Max has asked, is it going to make you a better PMTS skier? I can answer that for you, NO it won't. Do the drills, that will make you a better PMTS skier.

Of course if you have another agenda, then we all understand.

I'll make it very simple for you. When you look at their skiing who do you aspire to ski like, Harald or Eric Lipton? If you don't know or would rather ski like Eric Lipton I can get you a lesson with him. I have skied with him several times in Montana. He's a great guy and really fun to ski with.

Now if you would rather ski like Harald, immediately stop looking at Eric Lipton videos, start watching Harald's video's and re read the books, do the drills and get yourself to a camp and get your alignment done.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Myth Busters - Topic Split

Postby geoffda » Wed May 14, 2014 7:04 am

theorist wrote:
Max_501 wrote:What happens after frame 6? What does PMTS teach for the top of the turn?
That's a very broad question -- all sorts of stuff happens after frame 6 (e.g., he doesn't control the rotary forces, lack of CA/CB, etc.); and PMTS teaches a book's worth of material for the top of the turn -- so could you please be more specific?


I think you are missing the big picture here. At its most basic level, PMTS is about extracting maximum performance out of the ski. Think about Ted Ligety's GS skiing. When he is on, why is he so much better than the rest of the world? What is he able to do that nobody else can consistently match?

Max_501's question isn't broad at all. The answer is the reason behind everything we do. It is also probably the most fundamental thing that distinguishes truly great skiers from everyone else. Athletic skiers, with real talent, but no understanding of how skiing actually works often end up looking like Lipton when they try to imitate what they think they are seeing in world-class skiers. It is funny that you mention that you think Lipton is in control because my first thought when I watched the video was that I wouldn't want to be below him on the mountain. There is a whole different level of control that Lipton is missing out on. When you have it, you'll never look at skiing the same way again.
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