Myth Busters - Topic Split

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Myth Busters - Topic Split

Postby Skiasaurus Rex » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:01 am

skijim13 wrote:I know Eric at our mountain he is a God, I showed a top race instructor Eric's movement analysis from this website to demostrate to him that PMTS develops people to ski at even a higher level than PSIA or the current PSIA based race coaches. I can not begin to tell you how many bad things the person said about the analysis from the PMTS forum, his comment was that Eric could ski circles around any skier he knows including all the top skiers from PMTS. I lost total repect for him after that. I would say a key idea that keeps crossing my mine after reading it is that the what the PSIA develops for a skier after many clinics is "A skier instructor who really good at skiing badly."
Many ski instructors don't believe you should pull your inside foot back. Also the term balance on the outside ski is better term than put weight on it. I don't put direct pressure on my outside ski the pressure develops as the result of the forces in the turn and me being balanced on it, I just keep my outside leg from flexing from the forces. The PSIA believes you should push on your outside ski to bend it to tighten the turn. The PSIA is completly lost in the area of conteracting, pole usage, and counterbalancing. The also believe that rotation is a quick movement and not a slow progressive movement. People on the mountain never saw a drill like the angry mother and don't really see its great value building a key essential misssing in most peoples skiing. Ask the PSIA how to use poles and they really have no idea. I was eating dinner a few ago with some good friends and fellow ski instructors, when my wife and I told them we make all our turns now by tipping to the little toe edge and do not turn our skis they almost choked on their food. The really do not belive it is true and said we are turning our legs without really know it.


Alas, this may end being my swan song post over here, I hope not, but I'll assume the risk.

I'd never heard of Eric Lipton until a few weeks ago when his myth busting article popped up on every ski internet forum-including this one. After reading a few posts like the one above, I did a video search to see how he skis. He's got a number of videos, here's one of him demoing a gs radius turn in various crud landscapes.



Does this connect to his 'myth busters"?

I admit, I have trouble seeing really distinct differences between this skiing and PMTS skiers…what is different? Is this bad skiing or inefficient skiing? If this is the new model for PSIA, well, it looks better than previous demo-models I've watched and looks like a similar track that CSIA has headed towards with JF Beaulieu and Sebastien Michel.

Of course, I have no idea if ANY of this trickles down into ski schools and certainly those of yo who are active instructors can speak to that directly. It's one thing to demo skiing, but quite another to craft a system that teaches it-something PMTS has a lock on-it actually teaches movements that build toward the high end demonstrations of its best skiers.

Jim, do you teach PMTS at your mountain, and when you do does anyone correct or encourage you? How aware are your superiors/co-workers that what you teach is different? Same question to any active instructors who teach PMTS under a PSIA ski school.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby ToddW » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:53 am

What is different?


Everything.

A skiing acquaintance of yours attended the blue camp this year. He was exposed to 5 days of video MA with HSS coaches. Find time to watch the video with him in slow motion and discuss it. Have a copy of Max_501's checklist handy.

Don't bother looking at the hips and higher or the park and ride aspect of putting the turn to bed early. Leading each turn with free foot tipping, flexing to release, and fore-aft management all happen (or not) below the hips. Focus on these for now. Compare to video of Harald or another HSS coach. See the differences?
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby HighAngles » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:01 pm

Didn't we already give this video a pseudo MA? 99% of Lipton's turns completely skip the top of turn with his "bunny hop" move in every transition. Can he make a turn any other way? I'd like to see some of his "tuned down" turns to see his core movements more clearly.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby hyper_squirrel7 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:51 pm

HighAngles wrote:Didn't we already give this video a pseudo MA? 99% of Lipton's turns completely skip the top of turn with his "bunny hop" move in every transition. Can he make a turn any other way? I'd like to see some of his "tuned down" turns to see his core movements more clearly.


Image

Perhaps this video?

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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby jbotti » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:06 am

Skiasaurus Rex wrote:
I admit, I have trouble seeing really distinct differences between this skiing and PMTS skiers…what is different?


Wow, you get a huge Come on man!!! You have been on this site for years. You say that you are a follower of PMTS and a believer of this teaching method and you can't see the difference between his skiing and that of good PMTS skiers? There are people that have had the books for less than a month that can spot almost everything that is different.

And you wonder why the admins give you a hard time when you make comments and recommendations in the gear section!! If you can't ski with PMTS movements and you can't see the difference between those movements and other ones, how can you make gear recs to aspiring PMTS skiers!

You are not a follower of PMTS. Have you even read the books? Have you ever done the drills? We know you've never been to a camp nor had your alignment done.

Without spending time on the basics (mentioned above) everything else is just BS and a waste of everyone's time. If your agenda is not learning PMTS (and yours clearly is not) then what is yours? Justifying mediocre skiing, your own or others is not an agenda that is useful to anyone on this site other than you. If you get banned this will be the reason.
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Myths - Topic Spit

Postby Skiasaurus Rex » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:03 pm

Jbotti,

He looks different than other demo team stuff I've watched. Maybe just the rebound energy is throwing me off. I've watched some of his bumps demos,they look, well, smoother and better than other PSIA demos I have seen. Now, if that is just Lipton's own athleticism and flexibility at play or a change in PSIA, I don't know. I suspect it is former and not the latter. I still wonder if this sort of skiing is actively taught, even in PA where Lipton apparently works or worked. Nothing he does resonates as good skiing? Even in his bump demos-if you've seen them? And, he was a name that suddenly had play across a number of forums, including this one--had to wonder why.

And, I restricted this observation to social chatting. I don't 'believe' in any mode of ski instruction as they really aren't a matter of 'belief', now are they? I do see that folks who pursue HH's instruction get good results and are enthusiastic about the process, and that's convincing to me. I openly admit I'm a dabbler in technique. And I admit that presents limitations, oh well. But Flex to release and Tip to turn are the best advice I've ever heard on skiing and I've never heard anyone else outside of PMTS say them.

I've given up dismay over gear, everyone has their ideas,and the ones here are very consistent and that lends greatly to their worth. And thankfully there is enough diverse product out there every taste in skis can be overly indulged.

Oh, Enough with the 'you'll be banned' threats-I accept that the Admins can pull the plug on any comment or commentator whenever they like. So be it.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby skijim13 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:56 am

I can you from my experience that PMTS is the real path to expert skiing. I have always looked for a path to improve my skiing, since I was not happy to bomb down the hill out of control like the average skier does. I thought the correct path was to become a ski instructor to learn the to ski like an expert. However, what I discovered was that many of the things that the PSIA teaches leads to dead end movements. My wife and I started to follow PMTS in mid season last year and it made major improvements in our skiing makes which makes you want to work harder and harder at it. Every time we put more of each essential into our skiing our level of skiing goes up. The hardest dead end movement I had to unlearn was the up movement at turn transition (PSIA is famous for), this still comes back to haunt me on double black runs. I know I need to keep working hard at PMTS and study it year round. I am happy to have finally found the true way to learn expert skiing and hope to atttend a camp in the near future.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby milesb » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:28 pm

What Eric Lipton does is nothing like PMTS.

Your assignment is- think about why he frequently ends up on his inside ski.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:55 pm

Skiasaurus Rex wrote:I admit, I have trouble seeing really distinct differences between this skiing and PMTS skiers…what is different?


Have you seen this thread?

viewtopic.php?t=4261&p=43754
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby Skiasaurus Rex » Thu May 08, 2014 9:11 am

milesb wrote:What Eric Lipton does is nothing like PMTS.

Your assignment is- think about why he frequently ends up on his inside ski.


That's a good question, I figured it was a combination of:

1. balance recovery from high speed arcs in crud-I recall deslaurier talking about that in his book that using the LTE of inside ski was a way to balance and recover and finish a crud turn and
2. He transfers balance/ weight early in turn to inside ski

But, from your question, I suspect my analysis is wrong.

Is the biggest difference in his skiing the lack of CA in medium turns?

This is another all-mountain video of Lipton and another D-teamer, Mike Haffer skiing. Lipton is wearing the green coat and Haffer has the green pants. much greater mix of turns here. Is Haffer closer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_YRGkd4Cmc
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby Max_501 » Fri May 09, 2014 7:57 am

Skiasaurus Rex wrote:But, from your question, I suspect my analysis is wrong.


View the video with an eye towards CB/CA, pullback, and early outside leg extension.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby theorist » Fri May 09, 2014 6:53 pm

Max_501 wrote:
View the video with an eye towards CB/CA, pullback, and early outside leg extension.


Is there anything you'd say he's doing right (or well)? [Say if he were your student and you were giving him the good news along with the bad.]
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby Max_501 » Fri May 09, 2014 9:50 pm

For me it's not about right/wrong, instead look at areas that are different.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby skijim13 » Mon May 12, 2014 3:57 am

Theorist, PMTS is a different method of skiing compared to the TSS. A key difference for a skier using PMTS vs. TSS is the PMTS skier uses the energy form one turn to get into the next turn. The TSS skier has to eject themselves from the old turn with a up movement and a leg steering action to get into the next turn. The TSS skier never obtains the high C entry into the new turn and gets their speed control at the lower C part of the turn sometimes with a skid. There are many more differences, but the lack of leg steering in PMTS helps prevent knee damage. Before we started using PMTS my wifes knees used to hurt, this is one of the reasons we sort out a different way to ski. We do not say any method is right or wrong we just point out the differences. However, the PSIA is very strong willed on their method of skiing and both my wife and I have been told our stance is too narrrow, since the PSIA still believes in the wide stance, leg steering, extension at the end of the turn, and pushing hard on the front of the boots to obtain your fore aft balance. I can tell you from my experience there is so much to learn in PMTS that many people with a quick glance of the two systems might think they are the same. However, the more you learn about it the more you can see how different they are. Being a Scientist and understanding both systems the physics behind PMTS make perfect sense while the PSIA system does not.
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Re: Come on, Man!

Postby theorist » Mon May 12, 2014 5:56 pm

Perhaps I should rephrase my question to "Is there anything he's doing that doesn't look different from PMTS?" -- or "Is there anything he's doing that a good PMTS skier would also do?" For instance, while the timing of his fore-aft movements is not PMTS, he seems to have excellent fore-aft dynamic balance correction, since he's able to ski fast over rough snow without getting rocked back and forth.* I ask this because, in developing my own eye, it helps if I can spot not just what's different from PMTS, but also what's not. I find this challenging to do with a skier like Lipton, since nearly every aspect of his skiing is not PMTS -- so he's a good test case for me.

*Just to expand on this a bit: In Ch. 7 of Essentials, HH talks about how important is to be able to sense and adjust your fore-aft balance. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Lipton has and uses that skill. And (again, please correct if wrong), I think he's adjusting and maintaining his fore-aft balance by moving his feet back and forth under him, not by moving his hips and torso back and forth. Granted, he's not making the choices a PMTS skier would make in the timing of how he shifts his balance fore and aft -- but the key is that this is a choice for Lipton -- it's under his control. And (again, please correct if wrong), I think PMTS fore-aft balance, as explained in Essentials, consists of two things: (1) the ability to have control over your fore aft-balance -- to be able to adjust it and make choices; and (2) what choices you make. I'm suggesting that Lipton, while not PMTS for (2), could be PMTS for (1) -- i.e., that he has some of the PMTS "building blocks" in his skiing.
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