I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

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I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Basil j » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:37 am

I'd be interested in Harald's or any other PMTS gurus thoughts on Paul's skiing. He appears to do a lot of things right and he is a visually aesthetic skier, at least to the untrained eye. I don't see a ton of up and down movement or excessive upper body movement. He looks very close to the Canadian's style that I am seeing on you tube. One thing I think I see, and I could be wrong is that he gets on his edges later than a PMTS skier would. Other than that I think besides Harald, he is the most aesthetically and functional looking skier I have come across.
BTW, he gets $2500 a week for ski clinics and he also focuses on developing excellent short turns as the foundation to excellent skiing. Would love to hear some views as I begin my focus on PMTS skiing, as a newbie to it, for the upcoming year. I need to train me eye on what to look for.
I thank everyone in advance.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Basil j » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:55 am

sorry forgot to include the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-5ShPyQ6WI
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Max_501 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:36 am

Been discussed in the past.

h.harb wrote:Yes, they don't want to be seen, they know who they are, I've seen the gurus on Epic slide down hill. Not pretty!. The sad thing is they want to ski like a Paul Lorenz, a good model, and they don't recognize he skis PMTS movements, (when he's not popping) even if "he" doesn't know it. The Epic Gurus could only dream of skiing like him, yet the very system they profess, as being so good, is the one that will keep them terminal intermediates. They will never access the standards they recognize as wanting to be theirs, because the path they follow is broken.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Basil j » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:18 pm

Can you send me the link discussing Paul Lorenz?
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby geoffda » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:26 pm

No question, Paul totally rips. I think his skiing has much in common with PMTS, but he's got something a little weird going on with his short turns. There are plenty of cases where you can see the tips converge. To me it looks like he is adding some twist to get the turn to snap through. It's like the tipping stops and he has to add a little something extra to get the turn to finish. It seems like there is something not quite right that is causing a bit of a hit at the bottom of his turns. Hopefully Harald sees this thread, I'd be very interested in his comments on the particular video you posted.

Edit: See 1:40 for an example. Tips converging, stance ski tipped more than the free ski. Maybe he just gave up on tipping the free foot, but the knee on his stance leg looks like it is driving inward which is why I think there is some steering going on.

In terms of what to look for, start with the feet. Does tipping of the feet lead to engagement, and does the foot tipping continue to increase throughout the entire turn up to release. If there is tipping going on, you can look higher up the kinetic chain.

here is a great checklist for analyzing movement by Max_501:

Does the release start by flexing the outside leg?
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Are the feet pulled back at transition?
Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn?
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Strong inside arm?
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement?
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses?
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses?
Does LTE tipping continue throughout the turn?
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing?
Alignment - watch the skis and knees carefully - does anything look like it needs to be tipped in or out?
Last edited by geoffda on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:29 pm

That is great skiing - he is nailing those moguls like a pro…

I don't know any of the politics between EPIC and PMTS - but know what works and what to strive for - its their loss for not embracing PMTS. Unfortunately my eyes are still untrained in PMTS MA, but i am getting there.

Paul Lorentz looks very similar to these guys: you guessed it - canadian…

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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Max_501 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:36 pm

High level technical skiers demonstrate many similarities.

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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby geoffda » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:48 pm

go_large_or_go_home wrote:Paul Lorentz looks very similar to these guys: you guessed it - canadian…


Well, I'd say the other Canadians may be trying to look like like Paul or Reilly, but it isn't working. Watch how they develop their angles. It isn't with foot tipping . Paul and Reilly are operating on an entirely different level than the other guys. The first frame pretty much says it all. Sloppy and imprecise skiing by comparison.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Basil j » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Thanks for the feedback. Reilly looks very efficient and strong on his skis. What I like about PMTS is that there is no additional or wasted movements. It is powerful, yet has an elegance that I don't see on a lot of "good" skiers. Gives me something to aspire to. Waiting for delivery of the latest Harb DVD so I can get to work once the snow flies. I am eager to expose my kids to this methodology as well.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby ToddW » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:47 pm

Max_501 wrote:Been discussed in the past.

h.harb wrote:Yes, they don't want to be seen, they know who they are, I've seen the gurus on Epic slide down hill. Not pretty!. The sad thing is they want to ski like a Paul Lorenz, a good model, and they don't recognize he skis PMTS movements, (when he's not popping) even if "he" doesn't know it. The Epic Gurus could only dream of skiing like him, yet the very system they profess, as being so good, is the one that will keep them terminal intermediates. They will never access the standards they recognize as wanting to be theirs, because the path they follow is broken.


Basil,

Here is the link http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3096&start=15#p31984 This is the last post in a two-page thread entitled "Define a Pivot."

To track down a link for a known quote like this do a Google search with the keyword site:pmts.org/pmtsforum followed by a cut-n-paste of a large chunk of the quote.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:15 pm

Geoffda,
Wow, what a difference…Apart from the big man himself, it doesn't get more obvious than that…Great skiing! I shall unsubscribe from that youtube channel….I really need to work on my PMTS MA - I can spot the obvious, not the detail…And the better the skier….the harder it seems to get.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:33 pm

go_large_or_go_home wrote:Paul Lorentz looks very similar to these guys: you guessed it - canadian…


This is not PMTS skiing, very Canadian, it's hitting late, in the back seat and no foot (feet) pull back. The hips are locked back and they stay in the same place for every turn. Therefore, he has to pivot and hit hard and late on every turn. THis skiing will get tedious very quickly.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:53 pm

High level technical skiers demonstrate many similarities.



MA on these types of skiers is easy, remember I coached racers and skied with world class skiers, who can ski circles around these guys, so it's easy for me to see the mistakes. Many skiers see this as a goal or the pinnacle of skiing, I don't. Don't look at this and use it as your standard, you'll be headed down the wrong trail. THis skiing is back seat stuff, like the Canadian. The snow is soft and easy, (compare this to the run I did at A-Basin in May in the Performance Skiing video) there is a huge difference in hip position and hip re-centering for every arc. Max and JBotti know, becasue the have see it on steep, heavy, powder runs. You will get "beat up" using this approach in those conditions. and how many different techniques do you want to learn?

These guys, and (Epic coaches) talk so much about moving the hips forward, (they have 25 descriptions for this technique) yet, why is it that they never do it? They can't do it, because there is no "hip forward moving muscle in the body." I've studies anatomy and biomechanics and I've never come across the "Hip forward moving muscles". I've asked the best Sports Scientists in the world about these muscles and when I do, they look at me like I'm crazy. Yet Epic coaches, and PSIA, USSA, US Ski TEam coaches, and TTS all talk about moving the hips forward. They talk about it, they never show, demonstrate or explain it, unless it's an up extension they are referring to. For many here this is old stuff and they understand it because I've brought it up so often over the years. For you new folks, consider the mechanics and you will begin to realize the difference between PMTS and the rest..
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:58 pm

This pretty much sums things up for me.
How is it that recreational skiers can read the "Essentials of Skiing" book, learn from it and distinguish PMTS from TTS instruction and make a value judgement based on their experience with both systems? I have never had one person say to me "I read your books, tried your technique and found that TTS works better". This has never happened. Either ski instructors can't read or they hide from this information, even when they know it's there.

A commonly heard and read statement about PMTS is like this one, "PMTS does only Tipping", this demonstrates only ignorance, lack of knowledge, or stupidity, it's not an insult to PMTS, it is a self insulting statement. Of course TTS insults themselves every day, as they go out and try to perfect a wedge christie.
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Re: I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

Postby Max_501 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:29 pm

Ah heck, everyone makes mistakes. To my eye both Reilly and Paul are demonstrating a much higher level of technical precision then I've seen from most other demo teamers.
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