I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

[Matt]

Basil, I have had a lot of "Dad, my coach said ´this´ but you said ´this´" with my kids. I found it is not totally bad because it actually makes the kids think for themselves, and experiment what works best. I Let the coaches complain but keep doing what we are doing. In the group that I am coaching one of the other coaches has read the PMTS books over the summer. His impression is very good and I am looking forward to a season where we might actually coach the same thing...

[h.harb]

These skiers have to show a demo that satisfies the TTS judges. Therefore this video is not an indicator of Paul's true ability.

That is a given, remember I went through this process. What I'm saying and commenting on is the lack of edge and ski precision. The skis are not building performance and coming to a bend, they are skidded and jammed on edge. You don't have to do that if you can show edge control with tipping. Building edge angles and ski tip to tail performance is still within the range of what the judges want to see, but even better. He doesn't show that ability, so it's not PMTS skiing. Not even close.

It seems hard for people to MA the difference, but maybe if you watch the slow motion of engaging here in this short piece, you can see the difference I'm referring to with ski engagement rather than tail pushing type skiing. I never move my ski tails away from under my body (my body moves across my skis downhill and into angles with the skis) and my ski tip always engage the snow before the falline, you never see this in the demo skiing. Their skis come on edge at the very end and usually are loaded from the heels back in (what they call) short turns carved turns.

Few people can see the distinction, but that's what makes PMTS skiing so efficient.
This comes from WC technique and all WC racers have this ability, Demo team types don't have this ability. It's obvious in short turns because in my short turns in this video my ski is fed onto the edges from the high C, and energy is built into the bending ski. The demo skiing the energy has to come from the legs to twist the ski and get out of the late edge set with strong leg muscles, not ski rebound. He is showing a dead ski at the end of every turn, my ski is lively, it has rebound, that is why I get a High C, and he doesn't. He has to push the tail to get the ski on edge for the next turn. That demo skiing is a totally different skiing philosophy/technique and theirs is highly, physically demanding. That is why he is so low and back with the hips in short turns, he's grinding the legs like a cork screw, to get the skis to turn, I don't grind my legs, I get the skis on edge and let the body move and drop to the inside.

[Max_501]

Great discussion. I hear what you are saying but disagree on using demo footage as basis for MA on how they typically ski. I say this because I spoke with an instructor that gets judged poorly if he skis using purely race derived movements (he raced as a junior and in college). Therefore he has to throw in steering to make the judges happy. Of course MA of that demo footage will show lack of high C but its not indicative of his normal ripping.

[h.harb]

I'm afraid MAx you aren't seeing the ski activity he "doesn't show", even in the low end skiing. It's lacking, sorry, but it's not at the standard and it has nothing to do with race technique and Demo team judging. There are turns with two edge sets and skids that show no ski use in these demos, that's unacceptable. A true PMTS brushed carved turn, is in the realm of their (demo) steered short turn, but better even by their judging standards. Your instructor friend of course gets judged poorly for using race carved turns for steered short turns, I'd also grade him down as well , that's not a valid comparison.. Most ex-racers I know, can't demonstrate a quality brushed carve turn, so that leaves them out of the discussion.

[Max_501]

Your instructor friend of course gets judged poorly for using race carved turns for steered short turns, I'd also grade him down as well , that's not a valid comparison.

But I said race derived movements. The same movements used for a brushed carved turn.

[Skiasaurus Rex]

Looking at the 'dynamic mogul skiing' 'carved short turns' and his 'Free Run' does Paul use the same movements he uses in that first slow speed steered turned demos? Are they his go to turn in the initial video posted in this Thread? He has a pretty zippy bump skiing style and I wonder if that's his main focus and if that conditions his go to turns.

This is a good thread, I like seeing high level skiing discussed and explained by high level skiers.

[h.harb]

But I said race derived movements. The same movements used for a brushed carved turn.

That's just not true, if you are skiing race derived movements "correctly" and removing the dynamics, it's fine. It's an excuse he's doing something wrong. There are many so called "race derived movements", that are incorrect. and obviously wrong, got video?

[h.harb]

Rex,

There are many things about his skiing that are technical mistakes, and I think it's the coaching. His skiing is squatted,it lacks high C engagement, has late bottom of the arc engagement. Often has to step put of the turn and twists the skis to an edge, rather than tipping to an edge. His body never crosses the skis before the falline. He drops his hips all the way through the twisting phase. It's just not very refined technical skiing, lots of errors covered by speed and brute force or power. But it doesn't fool me. It's freestyle bump skiing applied to easy snow, on groomers. it's not what I would teach anyone, it has huge limitations. He'd ski like Rogan on steep off piste because with this way of skiing, he'd have to extend to release for control.

[h.harb]

Would love to hear some views as I begin my focus on PMTS skiing, as a newbie to it, for the upcoming year. I need to train me eye on what to look for.

I guess you got your money's worth on this thread.

[h.harb]

Therefore he has to throw in steering to make the judges happy.

No, he doesn't, he just has to make good brushed carved turns. The mechanics are world cup derived, but the application is a clean bushing turn, not an engaged turn. Trying to fake steering out of a race turn will never work, it looks goofy and the judges know it. The judges know it from his aggressive free skiing, I'm sure he looks like a racer and that scares them.

[Max_501]

That's just not true, if you are skiing race derived movements "correctly" and removing the dynamics, it's fine.

Wait a sec. Are you saying that PSIA judges will pass a PMTS brush as a PSIA steered turn?

[h.harb]

They don't know the difference, in most cases they just see a skier who knows what he's doing. After all I made the team with racing turns. I learned how to modify them after I made the team.

[Basil j]

Expert 2 just arrived today and My kids and I watched the whole video. Great stuff. they are already challenging some of the things they see in the video like a narrow stance, leading with inside foot calm hands and counter rotating. I love the scenario where you are outside leaning against the wall. My kids thought it looked silly, and then I actually made them put on their boots and do it themselves and they both immediately thought that it felt "right especially within the context of what they had been watching in the video so far and in relation to the slant board training they started this week. I have them do the board on both sides for 5 minutes every other day while I am riding the bike. Harald, your skiing is smooth, elegant and a joy to watch as is the women's in the video as well. I'll watch the video a few more times then crack open the book. Can't wait for the snow to fly.

[h.harb]

Great stuff, glad you're enjoying the PMTS approach. you can tell your kids, what they are learning now, the 6 best under 13 skiers in California are using the exact technique.

[arothafel]

Harald, your skiing is smooth, elegant and a joy to watch...

Basil j, if you think HH looks good on the video... I sincerely hope you get to a camp and watch Hararld... or any of the coaches ski "live."

It will blow you mind!