Let the new season begin!

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby geoffda » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:41 pm

go_large_or_go_home wrote:That's a great article....very similar to the first few chapters of the Paleo Diet...

It's a fair point about skiing being an anaerobic activity and that on a ketogenic diet, your top end performance suffers. The point that Peter Attia makes in his presentation, is that once you become Keto-adapted, you develop Metabolic Flexability. In otherwords, because you use less glycogen as a fuel source, when you eventually do need it, it is much quicker to replenish. Probably a Fight or Flight mechanism.

Is all skiing anaerobic? How much does conditioning have to play on your bodies ability to recover/ replenish glycogen? What if you never reach your Anearobic Threshold?


Yeah, interesting questions all. Particularly for recreational skiers. If you aren't concerned with the absolute maximum performance, can a ketogenic diet provide good-enough performance?

I just noticed this other post from Peter: http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nut ... n-co-exist which is fascinating. He claims to be able to calculate his glycogen deficit and maintain ketosis by simply replenishing exactly the amount of carbs he needs. This seems sort of similar to the cyclical ketogenic diet except that it is precisely targeted. It's an uber-physio-geek approach that isn't particularly practical for the average person, but it is fascinating none the less...
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:55 pm

Skiing is anaerobic, you can't get around it, for recreational skiers even more so, even lower level recreational skiers. The only skiers that can attest to skiing non-anerobically are experts that chose to ski casual (but highly skilled) lower speed and angled turns. For experts when skiing at lower levels, their technique allows them to relax the inside leg while the other leg's muscles are contracted. At the moment of relaxation (dominate ski edge and balance change) blood flow increases to the free foot leg, so that much needed oxygen is provided and that process alternates from leg to leg as the expert skier skis at lower levels than his capability. Intermediates rarely have the ability to relax enough to replenish blood flow to a non working leg. They are constantly contracting muscles of both legs, therefore no newly enriched oxygenated blood comes to either leg. That's why intermediates fade more quickly than experts even though they stop more often, and ski on less demanding terrain. The studies that support this have been done by Dr. Jan Karlson and others who presented at the Internationals Congress.

The world cup skiers who have better technique and use the inside leg less to stand on, have a distinct advantage, which is, a later onset of lactic acid. Therefore they can keep a higher level of precision in their turns near the bottom of longer demanding courses. Blood lactate was taken (since the 80s) after almost every run in training by the Austrian team and now also by the US Team. Often higher levels of lactate are not a result of inferior conditioning, but more to do with inferior technique.

Glycogen depletion is not my idea of a good training principle. Your timing has to be perfectly timed and your diet has to be meticulous. It's been around for decades and I've messed with it while competing, there are more misses than success in my experience.

As an after note, skiing raises your aerobic fitness, the researchers and scientists were astounded at first, because the durations in skiing are so short, yet the discoveries lead them to understand more about maximal level benefits of repeated reps of anaerobic training, even for aerobic enhancement. When I was coaching we always did baseline fitness tests every fall when the athletes returned to school. One year, I focused on only intervals and anaerobic short training sessions for the first two months. The mile run times and 3 mile run times improved substantially. No diet, or carbo loading techniques were included in this test.
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby jbotti » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:54 pm

go_large_or_go_home wrote:This single page stands pretty well on its own, and is not too much of a technical read....

http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb ... erformance

Basically, he is testing the following statement:

"A common belief among people is that carbohydrates are “necessary” for physical exertion and any form of athletic activity."


I just saw this quote and I haven't read all the posts after it but to make a statement like this in a vacuum is absurd. How many carbs ones body needs is in direct proprotion to the type of actvity that one is doing. I will go back to the cycling example and say with absolute authority that no one ever in the past or in the future will be able to cycle 4-6 hours per day without ingesting large amounts of carbohydartes. This has been clinically tested and proven in multiple studies time and time again.

Low carb, no grain diets can be great but they work when one changes their approach to exercise and in general they are not for athletes that are burning huge numbers of calories, otherwise their performance will suffer. Are we trying to say that 300lb offensive lineman in the NFL will mainatin their weight and strength with no carbs? Again that's absurd.

What is not mentioned in the article is how much he is training both before and after the test and because nothing that would be consdered clinically necessary is included (like the level of training both before and after the test with a proper baseline being etsablished) the results are worthless. Anyone can start from limted training, increase their training or even keep the training the same and can change their diet and show increases in VO2max. However what does not necessaily follow is that this change in diet will translate under a different exercise regimen or "that carbs are not necesaary".

All of this is absurd and his statements in this paper and his "study" in this paper lack any substance of scientific evidence.

If his point is that many could benefit from a low or no carb diet, I agree and there is much scientific data to suppport that claim but there is none (anywhere) to support the claim that he makes. I hate statements like the one he makes because first it is false and second it's the type of statement that charlatans make (which isn't to say that he is one).
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:16 pm

Glycogen depletion is not my idea of a good training principle. Your timing has to be perfectly timed and your diet has to be meticulous. It's been around for decades and I've messed with it while competing, there are more misses than success in my experience.

This statement is mild by my standards, but what I really wanted to say is "What John said", I think this report, it's not a scientific study, (it's self promotion like growing more hair) it is bullshit. Thanks John for saving me from being the normal tyrant on these bullshit issues..


There maybe new findings in nutrition and physiology as we evolve, but not major shifts in the science of what to ingest for performance foods, unless there were huge flaws in the original science and I'm not saying that has not happened. In this case however, there are so many athletic programs, studies, programs and athletes, who have tried almost every variation, and we still come back to the proven ratios of nutrition, originating from the macro nutrients.
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:51 pm

h.harb wrote:. As an after note, skiing raises your aerobic fitness, the researchers and scientists were astounded at first, because the durations in skiing are so short, yet the discoveries lead them to understand more about maximal level benefits of repeated reps of anaerobic training, even for aerobic enhancement. When I was coaching we always did baseline fitness tests every fall when the athletes returned to school. One year, I focused on only intervals and anaerobic short training sessions for the first two months. The mile run times and 3 mile run times improved substantially. No diet, or carbo loading techniques were included in this test.


I am not surprised by this at all, which is why I train the way I do. Dynamic tension...have you ever used the TRX? Before you even start your movement, your whole body is under 'stress' just holding a stable platform in an unstable position. Chose the right movement, Superimpose an interval protocol - tabata, and you can now get pretty close to simulating the same physical stress - both aerobic & anerobic found when you ski...
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby geoffda » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:29 am

Okaaay...So you guys shamed me into do doing some strength training. Resistance bands showed up today, so I decided to give circuit 1 a go (http://www.pmts.org/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=22). Fortunately, I'd done a few lunge and squat repeats with my workouts last week so I'm past the not being able to walk for several days post-workout thing. But even so, this is not an easy workout. 3 minutes of jump roping? You gotta be kidding me! That is HARD! Forgetting about the coordination required to keep it going for more than 10 seconds, if you want to experience pain, jump rope. Who knew? Bike intervals have nothing on this. And 10-15 reps doesn't seem like much, but I guarantee when you get to back extensions, 10 reps will seem like PLENTY!

Anyway, I've got to hand to Harald and Diana for putting together such a great fitness program that requires so little in the way of apparatus. Highly recommend this program if you are looking for something to kick your a$$ into skiing shape with a minimal investment in both time and $$. As Nike says, just do it!
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:46 am

Try doing it to a TABATA protocol....it will blow your mind....try doing any exercise to TABATA - apart from running on a treadmill...
My glute meads hurt like a b1tch for days after the clamshell exercise.

Big muscle groups are easy to exercise....it's the smaller groups that we forget about...if you think of your muscles as a voice - it's the whispering muscles that we need to work on, not the shouty ones...the whispering muscles are the ones that we lose connection with....but they are the most important...
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:34 pm

The first thing anyone needs to realize about training is there are many different kinds. Even with the first layer of introductory exercises on our PMTS web site you will be sore. It's natural, if you weren't getting sore it would mean your conditioning was beyond that level of training.

The first phase of your training should be to achieve muscle endurance. Not power, not max strength and not reaction speed. Muscle endurance is the base layer. After muscle endurance you can start to add more resistance. Our program can be tailored in any direction. You can set up stations, for each exercise and time each effort and schedule 10 second rests in-between the stations. Each station effort can be from 30 to 50 seconds of full on work. If you get beyond that phase you can add resistance in the form of weights. Don't start with tele hops, with 10lbs in your hands, those will kick your butt literally, you won't be able to walk for a week.

Start with single leg lunges. I hope I'm making myself clear on this, because you can easily over do it. If you have not been doing a base layer, don't do interval training with 10 stations your first day out, you will pay dearly and it won't do much but discourage you. Remember you are not a cage fighter, yet!
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby jbotti » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:08 pm

h.harb wrote: If you have not been doing a base layer, don't do interval training with 10 stations your first day out, you will pay dearly and it won't do much but discourage you. Remember you are not a cage fighter, yet!

It took me years to learn this lesson. It is amazing how fast you can ramp things up especially when you go easy for the first few sessions. Conversly it is also amazing how much pain you can cause your body by going all out on the first day "becuase you feel so good"!

The base level of strength training that I do in cycling season helps a ton too as it takes more time to get moving from a dead stop.
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:46 pm

Jbotti that's exactly on the mark.
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby HighAngles » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:46 pm

An interesting turn this thread has taken. I was already really concerned about my lack of preparation for the upcoming season, but now I'm more than worried. The last time I tried to ski myself into shape I ended up with a severe injury and missed 2 seasons of skiing. I just haven't been able to make the time to go through my normal preseason program and to make matters worse my eating habits have left me 20 lbs. heavier than my normal skiing weight. I'm seriously considering not getting on skis until I have enough preparation and weight loss so that I don't kill myself. I haven't even gone near my ski gear and I normally would have been getting my feet used to my ski boots starting on Labor Day. So things aren't shaping up to be a great ski season for me. I guess sometimes life just gets in the way. :(
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby geoffda » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:59 am

HighAngles wrote:An interesting turn this thread has taken. I was already really concerned about my lack of preparation for the upcoming season, but now I'm more than worried. The last time I tried to ski myself into shape I ended up with a severe injury and missed 2 seasons of skiing. I just haven't been able to make the time to go through my normal preseason program and to make matters worse my eating habits have left me 20 lbs. heavier than my normal skiing weight. I'm seriously considering not getting on skis until I have enough preparation and weight loss so that I don't kill myself. I haven't even gone near my ski gear and I normally would have been getting my feet used to my ski boots starting on Labor Day. So things aren't shaping up to be a great ski season for me. I guess sometimes life just gets in the way. :(


You may not be able to ski yourself into shape, but your current lack of conditioning doesn't have to keep you off the slopes. Basically all you are saying is that if you were to jump on skis right now and rip around like you usually do, you would likely get hurt. True. So don't. Take this opportunity to start the season slowly. Stay on blue and green groomed runs. Work on drills and precision movement. Put a speed limit on yourself. Stop trying to arc everything and work on your brushed carves. In short, what you have is an excuse to work on your skiing, so take advantage of it!
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby HighAngles » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:28 am

geoffda wrote:You may not be able to ski yourself into shape, but your current lack of conditioning doesn't have to keep you off the slopes. Basically all you are saying is that if you were to jump on skis right now and rip around like you usually do, you would likely get hurt. True. So don't. Take this opportunity to start the season slowly. Stay on blue and green groomed runs. Work on drills and precision movement. Put a speed limit on yourself. Stop trying to arc everything and work on your brushed carves. In short, what you have is an excuse to work on your skiing, so take advantage of it!


That's a great idea - of course the main key though is to be able to exercise sufficient self-control to stay away from the "risky behavior". I will take your advice though and see if I can use this time to work on the fundamentals while I get myself in better shape.
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby HighAngles » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:37 pm

So I had to post in my "official" start of the season thread again as I embark on the start of my season tomorrow. This is the latest start to a ski season I've ever had since I moved to Colorado. Of course the snow conditions early on didn't help, but I have also been heavily distracted by a renewed passion... with golf. I used to play avidly when I lived in Florida, but had given up playing when I took up skiing again in Colorado. As CO_Steve can attest - I've got the bug bad. :wink:

Anyhow, some of you were aware of my effort starting in the middle of last season to actually get back in shape (for real). I'm following a ketogenic diet protocol along with lifting weights daily and cardio 3 days/week. I've lost over 40 lbs. and gained significant strength and stamina. Geoffda pointed out that there was a whole discussion about keto in this thread last season, but I had never read through that section. Funny how things can kind of come full circle.

So I'm looking forward to a ski season where I'm moving less of me around the hill while also having greater strength. Hopefully it will pay dividends in my skiing. I know it's definitely helped with my golf. :D

Hopefully I'll get a chance to share some turns with some of the forum members this season. Here's to having a season of great snow and good turns... (or should that be great turns on good snow :lol: ).
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Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby Matt » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:16 pm

I tried skiing on a keto diet. Not fun. Fill your glycogen stores before skiing.
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