Let the new season begin!

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby A.L.E » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:26 pm

Aussie skier Jono Brauer with balance training.



For me my Aussie winters see some skiing, (usually saving for NH trips) however playing soccer dominates most weekends. Fitness for soccer most seasons involves regular 8 - 10k runs on grass and sets of 50 and 100m sprints. I'm lucky I still have good knees, only ever had one grade 1 ligament strain in my 40 plus years of playing.
User avatar
A.L.E
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:18 am
Location: sydney australia

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby geoffda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:12 pm

Can someone please wake me up when it is time to go skiing? =p

I've been riding generally 4x a week. Some road, some mountain, but it's been so wet here lately that most of August has been on the road. I don't really have time to go too long distance-wise so most of my rides have been in the hour range. But my rides always include some good climbs and either some cruise intervals on the road or regular (if unstructured) intervals on the mountain bike. I tend to agree with the others that shorter workouts with high-intensity (and appropriate rest between) have a high rate of fitness return.

With PMTS technique, I've found that my skiing is so energy efficient that I don't need the extra strength conditioning beyond what I get from cycling. I usually go out opening day for an hour and a half, ski three runs (due to insane crowds) and experience some foot discomfort and some burn in my hamstrings. By the next day, the discomfort will be gone and I'll start my ski-specific training regimen, which just amounts to skiing every day. I only have time for about an hour and a half, but by mid November (with three or four weeks under my belt) I'll be strong enough to ski all day for a week.
User avatar
geoffda
 
Posts: 859
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Copper Mountain, CO

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby Max_501 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 pm

PMTS is technically correct and biomechanically efficient. But skiing at high levels soaks up energy at an astounding rate. I can't recover fast enough to ski at expert levels all day for 7 days straight. Even 20 year old WC racers can only handle 8 - 10 hard training runs before their performance begins to degrade.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4123
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby geoffda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:37 am

Yeah, I can't ski hard all day for 7 straight days either, but I generally don't want to. If I'm skiing all day, I usually will ski hard for three or four hours and then dial it back a bit in the afternoon. I only get maybe three weeks a year where I can really ski all day. Mostly, I'm just out for a few hours Sun-Friday with Saturday being my one day to ski all day. If I had more time daily on the hill, I'd probably throw in some strength training, but for now my program works well...

That said, back before PMTS, I could never get away without strength training. I'd come off a summer where I was riding 200 miles a week and after my first day of skiing, I would be hurting so bad I could barely walk. It would take three to four days before I could walk without pain. Even once my legs got adapted, I'd still be so exhausted after a day of skiing that I would have to take a two hour nap.
User avatar
geoffda
 
Posts: 859
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am
Location: Copper Mountain, CO

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby emakarios » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:15 am

Geoff said :
"That said, back before PMTS, I could never get away without strength training. I'd come off a summer where I was riding 200 miles a week and after my first day of skiing, I would be hurting so bad I could barely walk. It would take three to four days before I could walk without pain. Even once my legs got adapted, I'd still be so exhausted after a day of skiing that I would have to take a two hour nap."

Maybe you were getting beat up skiing back in the old days because all that biking didn't have enough extension moves and wedge releases!

PS: I agree w/ jbotti on the endurance exercise benefits; both brain wise and physically. The downside I have run into over the years is getting stiff and inflexible from too many hours of linear and repetitive exercise; especially with long distance running. Biking seems more friendly to lateral strength and flexibility.
User avatar
emakarios
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:39 am
Location: Cannon Falls, MN USA

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby jbotti » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:25 am

I ran hard for twenty years. I loved it while I was doing it. I hate to say it but in large amounts running is not good for your body. It's more about flexibility than anything else. Running locks up your hips and this leads to all types of issues with how your body attempts to function with no or limied hip mobility. If you keep the hips open and loose, go for it. If not (and most can't especailly as we age) there are other ways of getting endorphins and aerobic endurance training.

Cycling comes with its own set of issues but I find them easier to work around and through.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 2044
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:33 pm

There is one caveat though..... Nothing can prepare your 'conditioning' to a sport like doing the actual sport..


This only applies if your movements and your final combination of that movement integrates into perfect results. The exercise has to be added and done absolutely perfectly. Too many skiers spend too much time practicing incorrect movement, drills and exercises that don't integrate. Therefore even the conditioning benefits don't fit.

That is why using the PSIA to work with US Ski Team development is a bad idea and will result in disastrous results.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 7004
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:21 pm

Most people exercise with the BIG muscle groups in mind...they are the easiest to exercise yet provide the least amount of relative strength and stability..jump on a bike and ride 100 miles with no previous training...the next few days to a week, you will experience acute DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness, but you can still walk, albeit with muscle pain...injure your rotator cuff - a tiny muscle in your shoulder pack and you almost completely lose the use of your shoulder...
Exercise the small muscle groups and you will become strong as an ox...then, the conditioning for the sport comes from doing the sport....any sport, it doesn't matter. You will be able to chop between tennis in the morning to skiing in the afternoon with ease, because your body will be stable, strong and balanced...

I am an athlete, but family life, job etc etc mean that I simply don't have the luxury to spend hours at a time training. 80-20 is the ideal ratio to achieve. 20% effort to achieve 80% results....most of us have it the wrong way round....why slog out 1hr on the running machine when I can achieve more from 3x 4 minute rounds of TABATA protocol air squats that engage 75% of all my muscle groups and boost my aerobic capacity off the chart...note: exercise is different from recreational sport - cycling, jogging etc etc...exercise is targeted, intense and should only last 20-30 mins 3x per week...if this all sounds a bit too way off the 'perceived wisdom' path...just consider how PMTS is viewed by those that think TTS is the only way...

Final note: I am I no way against any form of sport that lasts for any duration.....the main thing is that you enjoy it...however, boosting your performance is simple, it just requires a radically different approach....less is more...but the LESS has to be done properly..this is separate to dry land drill specific training....bad movements here can be disastrous to performance, especially if the are combined with exercising/ conditioning - 100 poorly executed rushed push ups with no form are worthless compared to 10 deliberate, form conscious movements....
User avatar
go_large_or_go_home
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:52 am
Location: UK

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:10 am

I agree about duration of training, especially when you get older. My limit now is 2 hours uphill bike, but only once a week, mostly 1 to 1.5 hours. I've always preferred shorter harder workouts, it gives you more in return for your time and develops more muscle mass. The old fallacy, I never bought into, was "long slow distance" it always seemed absurd to me, now in the last 5 years even the research shows you burn more calories at the anaerobic threshold.

I follow the Burdenko Methods. You can build strong muscles without heavy weights, build the exercises by doing sets with slow, medium and fast speeds. It's safe, great for flexibility and joints, plus keeps developing speed, which is one of the first things we lose.
http://www.burdenko.com

Tabata training: long aerobic
Group 1 had a significant increase in the aerobic system (cardiovascular system). However, the anaerobic system (muscles) gained little or no results at all.

Group 2 anerobic short workouts:
Showed much improvement in all their athletes. Their aerobic systems increased much more than group ones, and their anaerobic systems increased by 28%.

Conclusion? Not only did high intensity interval training have more of an impact on the aerobic systems; it had an impact on the anaerobic systems as well.

BTW: This is not new, although Tabata is about 1995, also HIIT, (high intensity interval Training) we were doing these types of intervals back in the 60ies. and 70ies.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 7004
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby h.harb » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:26 am

For those training exclusively on a bike, it doesn't set up your muscles properly for skiing, that is why you have sore muscles when you begin the season. Skiing is a ground reaction and explosive muscle contraction sport. Biking is a slower fluid open chain sport that doesn't impact reaction muscles unless you do only intervals or sprints on a bike and even that isn't the same as box jumps, lunges, tele hops, tuck jumps etc.

Biking gives you preparation, OK, but the final two months before the ski season you have to change 2 days/ week to gym activities. If you follow what we have on our PMTS training site you'll be fine. But build it up slowly, go through the steps, or you will be sore and stop.
User avatar
h.harb
 
Posts: 7004
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:08 pm
Location: Dumont, Colorado

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby arothafel » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:23 am

Harb Carvers...!!!! - Very fluid, also. But, gets the neurotransmitters working on balance, motion and varied terrain. High penalty for failure, though... ie: road rash, bruising, etc. :D
User avatar
arothafel
 
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:04 pm
Location: Villa Park, California

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:31 am

jbotti wrote:Having said that, you can't eat a paleo diet and do 4 hour bike rides (you might finish one of them but it will take you forever to recover without some serious carbs). If you are going to do longer endurance training, you need to eat carbs to fuel the body otrherwise you will only be doing severe damage to the body (trust me I've tried it).


This might change your mind.....this guy is a marathon swimmer and a MD....

User avatar
go_large_or_go_home
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:52 am
Location: UK

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby Max_501 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:28 am

I believe Dr. Peter Attia started his nutritional quest after discovering an insulin resistance predisposition in his 30s. He has done some amazing research that applies to his genetics and metabolic needs which revolves around ketosis.

http://eatingacademy.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMhLBPPtlrY

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/keto ... ate-part-i

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/keto ... te-part-ii

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous

I've played around with low carb diets and ketosis which Atkins popularized decades ago but found my body performs better with a higher degree of carbs (thanks jbotti). My performance seems to be highest with a roughly 40/30/30 ratio.

With regards to exercise I found that my ski performance jumped significantly when I added five 2 hour or longer mtn bike rides per week during the off season. By "ski performance" I am referring to strength and agility rather than endurance. I was already doing short but intense core strength workouts 3x/week, 60 mins on an elliptical at least 3x/week, and one tabata round every workout. I dropped the elliptical and tabata in favor of the time on the bike (but I do some HIIT on the bike). If I can't ride due to weather or time constraints I'll jump on the elliptical that day.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4123
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:54 pm

Max, thanks for the links. I find this stuff fascinating...especially the part about 'metabolic flexibility', which explains a lot about endurance etc. I inadvertently discovered this with my 'journey' to where I am today. Apart for the obvious sporting performance enhancements, there is no doubt a huge benefit on health and lifestyle...
User avatar
go_large_or_go_home
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:52 am
Location: UK

Re: Let the new season begin!

Postby Matt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:45 pm

If you train on a low intensity level ketogenic state is fine. If you train on an intensity level that produces lactic acid you need carbs.

Jonas Colting, a Swedish triathlon world champion and one of the fastest ultraman athletes all time, trains exclusively in ketogenic state. When he competes and trains hard he eats carbs.
Matt
 
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:15 pm
Location: Northern Sweden

PreviousNext

Return to Fitness

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron