Counter and Counterbalance

[SkierSynergy]

. . . as soon as counter movements are introduced a forward flexion (of the waist) component must be introduced to optimize the balance enhancing effects of counterbalancing movements.

Rick, We are on exactly the same page here. This is one big reason to counter move.

Lastly, it provides greater counter balancing effect then by using counter balancing alone. By adding counter acting, the upper body can stay upright more easily because the skier can recruit the muscles in front of the stomach and bend forward at the waist (forward in relation to the direction of the hips) rather than just isolating a lateral muscles and bending involved in counter balancing alone.

With no counter acting, getting the upper body back over the skis (the counter balancing) involves mainly the obliques. As counter acting is added the movement involves more muscles in the front of the torso. Yes this is much easier and more effective at high edge angles.

As far as the specific movements I am in agreement.

One issue that I always have with these discussions is that they try to describe these movements at the highest level without much discussion of how to get there. I think this was a big issue with the "Inside Leg Extension" thread . That is why I offered up a few practical and focused exercises for counter balance (when no counter movement is present).

I'll try to throw out some practical exercises later for counter movement in specific, as well as, some basic tasks to integrate the two into your skiing. However, I will ask that others who are working on these movements share their experiences and what they do as exercises, drills, etc.

[HeluvaSkier]

My bad on the misread. I will have to go back and re-read, but it seemed that the definitions of counter (HA) and counter balance rolled into one definition... not a big issue but I think i missed it.
Later
GREG

[SkierSynergy]

For PMTS the core of Upper/Lower Body coordination involves counter balance and counter movement -- there is also pole work to support these. These are done to facilitate lower body movements involved in edging and balance and they can be done independently though often work together for effective ULBC.

Just out on the slopes in common usage, people often talk about one or both of these movements as involved in "counter" though they are often mixed together with other more vague notions. Sometimes the components aren"t distinguished. Sometimes they have other stuff included. They are often presented often with different purposes. If you read the PSIA Tech manual you will see a very different notion of counter than here. Some high level race coaches will use it in a way much closer or just like PMTS. In common usage things get included or not inconsistently. Worse different people/groups use it differently. All this falls under the concept of "counter." That is why I say the concept is often too vague or ambiguous to be of real use.

That is why PMTS breaks it down more specifically and systematically with it's own terminology.

If you are only interested in the PMTS model, just look for thgose parts of the discussion which describe the PMTS model (and look at the other long threads on the subject in this forum -- oh they may not exist any more) and ignore the comparative stuff that may be here.

Or, hey, look for Harald's new book on this stuff this Spring.

Or, feel free to look at some of the montages or docs on the following web page and watch the 15 minute ULBC video there (bottom of page).

http://www.web.pdx.edu/~petersj/Skills/Lessons.htm

Have fun. Come on someone else toss in some exercises

[kirtland]

I think it is worth mentioning at this point, that counter balancing without a countered movement is contingent upon being athletically healthy and able to articulate at the hips laterally. Some older, arthritic or injured skiers are not able to flex laterally effectively. It has been my observation that most coaches and instructors I've run into are completetey unconscounsios of this fact. A skier who cannot counter balance effectively by bending laterally has to use some other method, which is generally adopt a countered position, use raising there outside arm more than others or bank.
Kirtland

[Ron White]

Kirkland,
I agree that some people have limited mobility of their hip joint. There are other joints that they can articulate to get the lateral counter balancing movement without relying on banking or arm movements to tip them in. Lateral movements can, and often done in conjunction with, the ankles, knee (weak joint), hip, and spine. Also, extending with one leg while flexing with the other causes the body to move lateraly.

RW