Nice Win for Schiffrin

Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby h.harb » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:55 pm

One of my contacts said he saw him skiing on a non-Atomic, and likely Nordica, boot during a particular race last year, so I was simply using careful language to avoid claiming he was on Nordicas for the entire season. It could well be he was on that boot for the entire season.


"One of my contacts," come on, sounds like a "click- sucker catch", Theorist I thought you had slightly more integrity than this? I watch the boots all year from 3 feet away, and have many contacts on the Austrian staff. This is total bullshit.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby h.harb » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:14 pm

What impresses me are people with good questions and knowledgeable comments. People who have read, studied, practiced and show they want to evolve their skiing, understanding or coaching. Unsubstantiated rumors that are on the verge of trying to be sensational don't impress me. I can listen to Trump and get that every minute on Twitter.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby Obrules15 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:36 pm

h.harb wrote:However, the fact that Atomic has screwed themselves, by not understanding technique and alignment for critical adjustments for their top racers


This was actually the genesis of my original question. Listening to your podcast last week I was reminded that one of the best technical skiers ever was flailing due to trying to ski in newly designed Atomic boots until you had her change back to her old boots, and since the change back she'd won every Slalom Race she'd entered (8 or 9). That's a huge problem if you're Atomic (I think).

But, the more that I'm studying up on alignment and reading about all of the measurements used etc. the more aware I am of the range of individual anatomy and biomechanics and how much that influences a skier's equipment needs. It seems as though the better a company makes it's equipment work for one of it's star skiers the more likely they are to create equipment that works for absolutely no one else. I seem to remember you commenting that Bode's design input really screwed up certain Head skis (I could be wrong and I don't remember which discipline) because his unique and homegrown skiing style meant that skis he did well on were nightmares for most other skiers.

Given the known problems with sensitivity/specificity (anything that works for a wide range of people is very unlikely to work really, really, well, for one person and vice versa if something is designed very well for one individual it likely won't work for a wide range of people), how could anyone ever expect entire ski teams over multiple years to ski the same equipment and be successful. The law of averages seems to suggest that that just won't ever work.

With that being said, I'd first assumed Atomic had designed boots that worked really well for someone, just not MK (because how could a multi-million dollar company go to market with a product that no one did well on); and that the problems were related to her specific alignment needs and anatomy, plus the boot techs/reps incomplete understanding of technique & alignment. However, I think you're suggesting that there is actually a basic design flaw. That they've designed that boot system around the frozen ankle/frozen foot/gross motor movement style of skiing a la Surefoot and that that type of boot is never going to be a good race boot for anyone no matter who works on it. Am I understanding correctly?

I admit, I find that rather confounding. Even if you assume that there is a segment of the population that will always be happiest skiing with their ankles encased in concrete (I don't believe this, but go with it for the sake of argument), logic says that that population is the exact opposite of the highly skilled racing population. In my experience the more skilled a person becomes at a movement the more a) subtle/fine motor adjustments they are capable of making and b) the more different ways or choices they have about how to perform that movement. So how is it a good idea to take away an experts' ability to move something. I'm so confused. Am I misunderstanding what Atomic has done or just hopelessly ignorant about the whole system.
Last edited by Obrules15 on Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby h.harb » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:49 pm

Thanks for your post, I have made some of the same very good points. You bring many things to light that I mentioned in my podcast and have been saying about boots for decades. Atomic has the idea that a super supinated foot and ankle bring more power to the edge. This is true for the initial edge engagement, however it makes it almost impossible to achieve super edge grip by the exit, without some really amazing adaptive skills and talent by the skier. I see hirscher's movements changing to adapt to his boots, not to better, compromising his skiing and the evolution of his brilliant natural skiing ability. Sure some of what he is doing is testing the arm swinging across the flats, which some skiers have used to look like they can gain speed, however his abilities on the steeps have diminished in my view.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby Obrules15 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:39 pm

h.harb wrote:I've had my feet into Atomic 150 WC boot it's diabolical, it would require a total rework just to be able to fee ski in it. These guys heads are off to the crazy side, they are totally locking up the foot.
h.harb wrote:Atomic has the idea that a super supinated foot and ankle bring more power to the edge. This is true for the initial edge engagement, however it makes it almost impossible to achieve super edge grip by the exit


So Atomic is locking up the foot in a super supinated arrangement, interesting. Are there WC skiers who have consistently made the podium in those boots or in that type of setup?

If I understand correctly over supinating the foot would occur inside the boot, or around the foot and would have a different effect on alignment than if you put a plate under the sole because under the sole would change the orientation of the Tib/Fib to the femur directly without impacting or changing the ankle joint, whereas the first case would lock in a bent ankle and reposition the knee (in a different plane, maybe?).

So even though both would involve putting extra stuff under the inside half of the foot, the anatomic derangement would be quite different. Is there a functional difference in how the two different set ups would ski? What would happen if you then re-aligned the over supinated foot to neutral with plating? That seems like it might be a recipe for a disastrous injury.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby h.harb » Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm

Very good analysis, a wider solid foot like Hirscher's, if it doesn't have enough room and is locked in a thick stiff shell, while also supinated, will lock up and be highly vulnerable to knee driving and injury as well. The foot will have no eversion capability or absorption will be also limited. Notice how few are winning on Atomic, and it's getting even closer and closer for Shiffrin and Hirscher. Remember the year Hirscher broke his ankle in his boot, he lost out on about 5 victories that year, he was really hot before that injury. In the boot ankle breaking is rare and it's totally the fault of the in boot set up.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby Obrules15 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:56 pm

h.harb wrote:Very good analysis


Blame Diana. She did my alignment in the spring and I was so impressed that I've been on a tear to learn and understand everything I can about PMTS since then.

h.harb wrote:Remember the year Hirscher broke his ankle in his boot, he lost out on about 5 victories that year, he was really hot before that injury. In the boot ankle breaking is rare and it's totally the fault of the in boot set up.


That's crazy, does nobody know this, or do they know and there's nothing they can do about it.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby h.harb » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:02 pm

They just don't know. The lack of training in the biomechanics field is astounding, for a total industry like skiing.
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby sgarrozzo » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:55 am

Despite all I stand by my idea. Put the Incredible Hulk thighs reduced a little the slalom skills of Shiffrin. A bit like what happened to Hirscher when he became Big Jim. :D
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Re: Nice Win for Schiffrin

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:00 pm

So Atomic did some changing on Shiffrin after about 2 weeks of my exposing their incompetence on Facebook and texting her mother. I see in GS it is much better after they changed the cuffs or the whole boot, but it's still not perfect. She was skiing the old boot; I told her mother to put her on, last spring at Loveland, then they went to another version of the new boot. Atomic is a mess. I watch all their skiers few are well aligned well. Head is getting their act together except for Pintaurault in slalom, his set up is still cuff, too strong.. Look at what B. Schild is doing, and what she has done since she switched from Atomics, to Rossingnol, now on Head, it's working.

She didn't get more talent, she didn't learn to ski better, she just got a better boot set up. These people don't have a clue, especially not on the World Cup commentators side of our US TV coverage. Will Brandenburg is an idiot, he can't even speak English.. The ex-US Ski Team members, as commentators should stay the hell off TV, because they expose the ignorance of US coaching. I've experienced this first hand from ex-US team members and they openly admit it.
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