Man Down!

Man Down!

Postby jbotti » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:05 pm

Ted tore his ACL today in training. Done for the season. He had been dealing with a long list of injuries and clearly hadn't skied well. Maybe he can come back strong next year.

http://www.skiracing.com/stories/ted-li ... ning-crash
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Re: Man Down!

Postby A.L.E » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:37 pm

For the first time in many years I checked into Epic forum a couple of weeks ago and read the beginning of a long thread (now locked) entitled "Ski Technique". Only got thru the first dozen of 146 pages :lol: but the "discussion" centred around a USA team ski coach's description of Ted being fast by pushing off the old stance ski and engaging the big toe of the new stance ski, that was the TL fast release and engage focus. Proponent Atomicman was convinced a push was the go to move rather than a focus on retraction and tipping the new inside ski.
So my first thought when seeing this injury was to wonder whether that focus of a push off and step onto new outside ski (results in an ugly A Frame for mere mortals with TT wide stances) had something to do with the crash? Perhaps in pushing and lost the outside edge! Sort of looks like an outside ski slip? But I'm no racer.
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Re: Man Down!

Postby blackthorn » Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:04 pm

I understand that one of the main principles of PMTS is flex to release, flex to engage. The principle of "don't push off" is one that I try and use. It is not formally embraced in PMTS writings etc. as a term.
However A.L.E's question raises the broader issue of whether push off is/should be used in racing technique. At the highest level say in GS, is it a legitimate technique to ski faster?
Is anyone able to enlighten me?
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Re: Man Down!

Postby jbotti » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:13 pm

The fastest (and best) GS skier in the world does not use and extension/push off move. That should answer the question.
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Re: Man Down!

Postby blackthorn » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:38 pm

If I gave that type of reply to one of my students I don't think that they would regard it as adequately answering the question.

Having said that, based on my own PMTS based understanding, I will try and answer my own question then- " in GS ski racing the only time you might see any push off is at the start and finish when there may be a bit of skating. There is a possibility to push when above the fall line ie in the high C , but as in recreational skiing, any advantages remain outweighed by the disadvantages"
I do suspect that many racers don't understand their own skiing at a fundamental level. Reading Ted Ligety's comments and the USSA document 2011 on GS ski racing appear to add to the confusion.
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Re: Man Down!

Postby jbotti » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:26 pm

You asked if pushing off was in any way faster. I answered by saying that the fastest guy doesn't push off. In what way didn't this answer the question?

I don't pretend to understand WC skiing on an experiential level. I do think that you will see guys extend/stand up as a means to insure being forward enough because when you are going 45mph in intense high g arcs these guys are constantly fighting to stay forward enough. In most GS skiers when they have time you will see them extend some to get forward and the rest of the tine it is a deep flex move to release. This extension is very different than an extend and push off move so common in many recreational skiers.

I have watched the video of Ted's crash several times and I can't download it and slow mo it so IMO its real hard to tell what happened. But I didn't see an extension. It looks more like he hit a rut wrong and it bounced him but I can't really tell from that video.
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Re: Man Down!

Postby blackthorn » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:19 pm

Thanks. Yes, I agree that we are talking about advanced racing techniques, not recreational skiing/lower level racing.
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Re: Man Down!

Postby DougD » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:04 am

blackthorn wrote:...The principle of "don't push off" is one that I try and use. It is not formally embraced in PMTS writings etc. as a term.

For good reasons.

I'm not a coach, but my reading of PMTS and my experience at camp is that it's more effective to focus on the movement you do want to make, rather than on movements you don't want to make.

If I ski along thinking, "Don't do X", my focus will be on whatever body part is responsible for X-ing (in the case of pushing off, the BTE). This detracts from the focus needed to activate and control the body part which makes the movement I want (for flexing and tipping, the LTE).
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Re: Man Down!

Postby blackthorn » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:24 pm

Doug, I absolutely agree agree with your point. I am also trying to be very clear that my question is about advanced level GS racing, and not PMTS. It is also not about recovery moves etcetc. I acknowledge that it is a bit abstruse.

Additionally, I agree with JB when he says "This extension is very different than an extend and push off move so common in many recreational skiers."

Ted Ligety says he "pushes off". The term is not well defined anywhere, and we don't know how well he understands what he does - some of it may be magnificantly instinctive. It is possible that there may be a brief part of the turn ie above the fall line, in which a forceable extension might assist in propelling the COM downhill. If it occurs then it is likely to be after he has obtained the necessary angles and ski edge engagement that he needs, and brief in duration. Once beyond the fall line any forceable extension will move the COM uphill. This might be couterproductive, but maybe not if its purpose is to maintain fore aft balance or something else. So when JB describes the extension that is seen, is it working with the COM, against the COM, a bit of both or neither.

My understanding is that it will be "neither", but that's why I am asking because I don't really know.

I think that it is virtually impossible to determine just from looking at stills or videos. Scientifically it would maybe need accelerometers on the boots, and at the COM. I have tried to search on line for articles.

I am looking for an answer/deeper understanding if there is one, and not a debate ( as per E### etc ). Part of the problem might be that I am asking the wrong question and/or have some fundamental misunderstandings of what is going on. I accept that this may not interest many but I can't find any other source of information that seems remotely understandable, logical, and based on appropriate basic principles.
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Re: Man Down!

Postby mardale » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:40 pm

WC racers will do whatever the tactics require, but pushing off is not a "goto" technique. As we know, flexing "off" is.

What Ted is describing as "pushing" is the same thing a weight lifter may describe: that he is pushing hard against the ground to hold the weight. Ted is describing pressure appearing and increasing rapidly to the multiple g he is pulling around such turns. It is not related to pushing "off" the ski.

The crash - can't slow it down, but it looks like he got back and lost the outside ski and ended up on the inside ski with a very flexed inside leg and ouch-time. Same thing Anna did I think. Root cause... not sure... lost CA or leaned in or both? He went very direct at that gate, the ski still pointing out at the gate... almost same thing happened at the blue gate above, but he recovered there.
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