Ski and boots on the world cup

Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby h.harb » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:46 pm

The ski and boot companies fall into different categories as far as set up and performance, relative to they way the skier's ski on different equipment. Here are the determining factors, and much of it is luck of the draw rather than planned. First, there are bowlegged skiers and more neutral skiers performing on the world cup. Some skiers are knocked kneed, but only a small number. Hansdotter is one that comes to mind. knocked kneed skiers mostly get weeded out before they arrive at the world cup level.

Given those two parameters, I won't go into feet and ankles, because it just opens up too many variables right now, let's look at the equipment parameters first. Boots and Skis from the same company seem to have a bias toward either, over powered, which means too strong on an edge and under powered, too weak an edge hold. To some degree the skier's technique will evolve based on their own anatomy (which can also be over or under powdered like the skis and boots) and the ski and boot propensity toward either performance leaning.

Ideally, and this is a generalization, for sake of simplicity and comprehension, an "over powered" skier, determined by foot, ankle and leg alignment, should choose "underpowered" equipment, so they balance each other out and become manageable. Hirscher, for example would do better suited on Rossignol, than Atomic. By most standards of alignment, Rossignol equipment shows it is under powered or softer. However by contrast, Hirscher has the strength to over power the resistance presented by powerful boots and stiff skis from Atomic, on certain snow, like injected ice. On softer snow, the overpowered Hirscher (his anatomy) and over powered equipment, just don't work as well. In reverse, the same goes for the opposite characteristics, "soft set ups" or equipment. They work better on softer snow.
Are you following this, before I go too much further?
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby Carl R » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:53 pm

So far but not the whys.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby h.harb » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:04 pm

The "whys" are in 44 years of coaching, studying, testing, evaluating, measuring, teaching, and training. I get that question all the time. I can't explain it on a forum or a post, it's more involved than a ph'd thesis. There is already more information about this on this forum than probably anywhere else in recorded skiing, about alignment.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby Carl R » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:27 pm

I meant that I don't have the foundation. :)
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby theorist » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:52 pm

I can't vouch for this personally, so I'd encourage you to check with your own sources, but I've been told -- by someone that appears to have strong WC connections -- that last year, at the start of the season, Hirscher was testing boots produced by the Salomon race dept. (which, while not Atomic, is at least in the Atomic/Amer family), but that he ultimately ended up on Nordicas. Further, I was told his and skis were neither Atomic nor Salomon; the most likely guess was Nordica. This doesn't substantively impact anything you were saying, since whoever makes his gear doesn't change the characteristics you've identified; but I thought this tidbit was interesting.
Last edited by theorist on Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby theorist » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:19 pm

h.harb wrote: However by contrast, Hirscher has the strength to over power the resistance presented by powerful boots and stiff skis from Atomic, on certain snow, like injected ice

Thanks for posting this, always interesting to hear your thoughts on gear. Sorry, I think I followed everything except this. I thought powerful boots weren't boots that provided resistance to tipping/edging, but boots that responded to tipping action with powerful edging -- and thus that the problem with Hirscher in powerful boots is you combine his powerful tipping/edging motions, with the boot's powerful response to these, and you end up with a doubly-powerful edging outcome, which is great on ice, but constitutes over-edging for soft snow. By contrast, less-powerful boots respond less strongly, thus softening the outcome of Hirscher's tipping/edging motions, giving him more of the finesse he would need in soft snow. (?)
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby ToddW » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:22 pm

Following clearly. Thanks for starting this thread.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby Louis » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:46 am

I'm following. I would love to hear more about functions and differences of gear, as this is the only source I trust!
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby Bolter » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:40 am

Louis wrote:I'm following. I would love to hear more about functions and differences of gear, as this is the only source I trust!


++

Keep going, answer questions later, if ever.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby blackthorn » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:42 am

Is the issue of "power" with respect to the boot, just an issue of stiffness, or does it also involve the way the boot allows the foot to move within the boot? I'm thinking about degrees of foot pronation translating through to small amounts of lower leg rotation amongst other things.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby h.harb » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:48 pm

Is the issue of "power" with respect to the boot, just an issue of stiffness, or does it also involve the way the boot allows the foot to move within the boot? I'm thinking about degrees of foot pronation translating through to small amounts of lower leg rotation amongst other things.


You are Right, I answered this in my original post. The answer requires a background in biomechanics, podiatry, equipment and world cup skiing! And 30 pages of time and space on this forum.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby h.harb » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:51 pm

I was just getting started, I have not covered Salomon, Fischer, Lange, volkl, blizzard, nordica etc etc. I'll get there, so far, we some good answers or questions, they will guide the direction.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby blackthorn » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:04 pm

Thanks. I guess it is like "tuning" an F1 car for driver and circuit using the variables of tyres, suspension, engine, weather etcetc. One thing that you and PMTS have emphasised in, for instance, boot fitting/alignment is the need for sound basic principles, static fitting, but then importantly on slope analysis with subsequent adjustment and appropriate trade offs. In World Cup racing this should be infinitely more complex. What amazes me is how innaccessible most of this information is outside of PMTS. There is so much within this forum and its threads and a desire of its posters and lurkers to read/learn more.
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby blackthorn » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:32 pm

So now a question. Would/should a WC skier in GS and SL change boots depending on the course/snow condition and what might the boot characteristics be that are trying to be achieved by the change?
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Re: Ski and boots on the world cup

Postby Louis » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:53 am

Nice question, I hope this thread runs forever :)
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