The Pivot in Racing?

[h.harb]

Jim, the last time I looked, skiing the way you want to ski is still available to all skiers. There is no law that says you have to ski the PSIA way. If friends and fellow instructors want to ski PSIA, it's a choice. If you have to work in a PSIA environment you are not free. If you are on a ski trip you can do what you like. Let your skiing do the talking, skiing isn't a religion, but many people sure made it a belief system that is just as strong to them. The bottom line, belief doesn't make a good ski turns, good science does, the right biomechanics and good technique does make a good ski turn. it's not about belief, it's about correct movements. So let them believe what they want.

[DougD]

You learn how to balance, how to move, and how to precisely control the ski when you learn to carve. When you can carve at a high level, you will be able to do all of the other stuff too. You'll be able to synthesize whatever you want on the fly.

Exactly.

Many years ago I was free skiing with a group, moving fairly fast on groomed hardpack. Our leader made a sudden, unannounced turn off trail into a shortcut through the woods. (He hadn't warned us. In his pack you either kept up or you didn't, lol.)

I was next behind him and made the turn with a tight carve... until I heard "ON YOUR RIGHT!" I relaxed my highly tipped, BTE-edged stance ski to a 2- or 3-toe edge and looked uphill. The skier behind me couldn't make the turn and was sliding downhill into me.

As he made contact I instinctively adjusted my edges to support and slow him, taking care not to edge so hard that he'd lose his balance and fall. He regained control just in time to complete the turn onto the track through the woods. I had to enter a couple of trees lower and shuffle uphill a bit. (He apologized and stopped skiing with that pack, wisely admitting that he lacked the skills to safely keep up.)

With good carving skills, improvising a brushed edge on the fly is easy. Even when supporting the weight of an unexpected passenger, it requires only small adjustments of the foot muscles. This can be done quickly, subtly and without upsetting balance.

[speedcontrol]

Can someone please post a link to the video you discusse here , I am unable to watch it. Thank you .

[geoffda]

Thanks Geoff for the added information, PMTS always provides the answers I am looking for. Lorie and I will be out there in January for the short turn camp with our new Head Rebel skis, we will say at Keystone this time, and ski the mountain before camp starts.

Give me a holler when you guys get out and we can make some turns before camp.

[Max_501]

I was on a blog and got into a discussion that all turns are the result of tipping on and off edges and steering is not used in modern racing. Since I do not have a racer background I can't say for sure that this is never used.

First, let me toss out some hard earned insight on use of time as it relates to becoming an expert PMTS skier. It took me years to figure it out, but IMO, debating ski technique with TTS skiers is a complete wast of time. The issue is that TTS trained instructors/coaches truly believe that mastering active rotary movements (intentional recruitment of muscles to turn the skis in the direction of the turn) is a requirement for expert skiing. When one of my videos was posted on Epic it resulted in a lot of discussion with the TTS experts suggesting that I had very good rotary skills. When I pointed out that I don't actively use pivoting or ski redirection they disagreed because they could "see" it in the video. That belief system is so strong that even when I ski with TTS instructors and demonstrate things like a slow TFR they still see it is an active redirection/pivot of the skis. The debate is pointless because until a skier commits to skiing without active rotary they will likely continue to believe active rotary is a part of expert skiing.

If you research this subject by searching the PTMS forum you will find that HH developed PMTS based on expert (WC) level skiing and he has been very clear that any pivoting/redirection is passive.

Here are a few quotes from 2004:

But the question you asked was, do we twist or pivot in the PMTS System? Answer, NO!!! The reference in the ongoing thread was about bump skiing at the top of the bump or mogul.

When I designed PMTS, I worked through ever conceivable input and resultant of actions. After I narrowed the skiing movements down to only the efficient movements; I tested the movements with students of all levels below experts, including beginners (remember I had a life time of coaching expert skiers, so I didn't need to research their movements). I found that you could teach skiing without referring to or teaching movements like pivoting, steering, or turning, parts of the body below the hips.

Now, as you all know, that doesn't mean we only achieve locked carved turns when using the PMTS system. In fact, at the early levels, PMTS is a very skidded progression. Brushed carves or skidded turns are achieved in PMTS by changing the duration and intensity of tipping. If I have speed and momentum, I can choose to carve or brush my turn, by how quickly and how much I tip my skis. If I tilt my skis to only 25% of what is necessary to achieve lock carve and I don't extend the legs to create pressure; I get skidded turns. I don't have to add rotary movements to achieve a skidded or as TTS call them, 'guided turns'.

Rotary movements are actually limiting, and they impose lower skiing quality, turn standards, with reduced control. That method also increases balance disruption. Anyone who tells you different does not understand their (own) skiing and is spewing dogma.

I have yet to see a student appear at our door complaining that they are carving too much and can't get out of a locked carved turn. I wish we could have that problem, as it is much easier to fix that situation, then the one where the student is steering as their primary movement function. We teach PMTS carving movements because that is what the client wants and needs to achieve higher levels of skiing.

Once-and-for-all, the actions of tipping and tilting pull the femurs into passive rotation, to follow the tipping action of the skis, boots and skis. This is not taught in PMTS, it is part of the kinetic chain in action. Teaching active steering disrupts tipping and balancing so important to PMTS efficiency. In many advanced situations tipping with body inclination and body counter can reduce leg rotation almost completely and in this case there is no passive or active rotation of the legs. It always continues to amaze me that otherwise intelligent people can tell me that you can?t make ski turns with out rotary leg movements. It is very easy to prove that turning can be achieved without leg steering of any kind. Skis can also be turned without active tipping or rotary movements, but this is a flat ski turn. These are discoveries available only to skiers who are able to get out of their paradigm comfort zone.

Pivoting a flat ski is not the, or one of the intents or outcomes of PMTS or a Phantom Move. If you are pivoting the stance ski you are not making PMTS movements as they are taught, written or designed. If you are using this approach you will pay for it when you are in situations when this approach has negative consequences. Especially if it is the way you shorten an arc. Pivoting the stance ski keeps the (center of gravity) CG over the stance ski and therefore does not create angles until the ski is moved away (skidded, pushed) from the CG. If you use this approach and develop it as a default movement, you will have great difficulty controlling speed on steeps, bumps and powder or crud.

A rotary force is not needed to move a flat ski into a skid or a pivot, gravity (if you start static) will pull the ski into the falline. Many different movements can assist in accelerating the pivot, such as leg rotation, fulcrum from the pole in the snow, counter rotation with leg steering. None are advocated by the PMTS system, but they do exist in skiing. You may be using non-PMTS movements to create quick, shortened, twisting direction changes. If you feel strong rotation of the ski, you are most likely using hip rotation and or leg/foot steering.

A tilting of the free foot, boot and ski to create an angle for the new turn does not constitute steering. It only externally rotates that femur and moves the knee out board of the ski. This is passive rotation of the femur and it is easily absorbed in the hip and doesn't transfer rotation to the stance leg. In PMTS the stance ski /foot follows the tipping of the free foot and creates angles of the ski and body to the surface very early in the arc. If you do this slowly and are able to stay balanced you will achieve a very short yet controlled turn or radius.

And here is a related post by HH from 2008: RE: Using WC Technique to justify what ever they want

[DougD]

The bottom line, belief doesn't make a good ski turn, good science, the right biomechanics and good technique does make a good ski turn. it's not about belief, it's about correct movements. So let them believe what they want.

IMO, debating ski technique with TTS skiers is a complete wast of time. The issue is that TTS trained instructors/coaches truly believe that mastering active rotary movements (intentional recruitment of muscles to turn the skis in the direction of the turn) is a requirement for expert skiing. 

Fully agree. Debating any subject with someone who relies on belief is futile. Belief does not depend on facts or science. Belief depends on faith, and the stronger the faith, the more it resists challenges from outside that faith. Challenging faith with facts is pointless and may even be dangerous.

That belief system is so strong that even when I ski with TTS instructors and demonstrate things like a slow TFR they still see it is an active redirection/pivot of the skis. 

One wonders: if you place a ski across the fall line on a smooth, steep slope, ski brakes tied up but with no skier on board, then let it go, it will seek the fall line all by itself. Would TTS instructors attribute even this to active rotation?

[skijim13]

Thanks everyone for the great information, its sad that there is so much bad information out there for the general public. I am friends with a person on the national demo team on facebook, he is at interski this week and posted a photo of the group of them skiing, about seven everyone loved the photos but from the photos it was very clear that two were far in the back seat, all were square to their skis, and three were starting their turns in a wedge. One brave person made a negative comment about their skiing and was attacked quicky. The sad thing is these are the best of the best? I see far better skiing at the end of the Superblue Camp then that.

[DougD]

One brave person made a negative comment about their skiing and was attacked quicky.

Demonstrating once again that confronting belief with facts is futile and dangerous.

You might consider PM-ing the person who offered the criticism. He's apparently interested in what skiers actually do. As PMTS is based on what the best skiers actually do, he might be a good candidate. At a minimum, he'd probably enjoy meeting another PSIA insider who's able to think outside their box.

The attackers are - ipso facto - a lost cause. Leave them to their delusions.

[h.harb]

Have a look at my Facebook page. The same thing is going on, but the support for reality, truth and honesty, are much more evenly balanced.
https://www.facebook.com/hrharb?fref=photo