The Pivot in Racing?

[skijim13]

I was on a blog and got into a discussion that all turns are the result of tipping on and off edges and steering is not used in modern racing. Since I do not have a racer background I can't say for sure that this is never used. From what I have learned PMTS is that you should never engage the BTE first since this is not an efficient move and will result in a wedge. Engagement into the new turn is the result of the release as the CM moves into the new turn by inversion of the inside foot and flexing of the inside leg, and allowing the new outside leg to extend as the result of this move. If that is the case if you look at the above frozen video his skis are not parallel at turn entry, is this move being looked at as a pivot that was not intended to be used but as a result of a poor engagement of the new turn at high speed and forces?

[DougD]

Hi Jim,

I've no racing background either (as you know from watching me ski!), but I'll take a whack at this pending input from any real PMTS experts who choose to follow and chew me up.

So as not to be biased, I watched your video repeatedly with the sound turned off. I have no idea what the commentator thinks beyond the suggestion of pivoting in the title slides.

The turn in question occurs at full speed from 0:36-38, and is repeated in slow motion from 0:49-52. What I see in that turn is NOT pivoting. Nor is there any early BTE engagement. Watch the slow motion segment and you'll see:
- release of the old turn by flexion
- weight remains on the old stance ski (it's not lifted, this is not a one-footed release/Phantom Move)
- the old stance foot, still weighted, is tipped rapidly toward its LTE
- the old free foot, still free, is lifted off the snow by the skier's COM moving down the hill
- the new edges are engaged INSIDE SKI FIRST, the outside ski is entirely off the snow during the High C
- the inside ski tipping/edging is not overly aggressive during the High C, the ski doesn't carve ... it BRUSHES
- as the skis approach the fall line, the outside leg is g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y extended to touch the snow, tip first, tipped toward its BTE... this engages both edges and starts the skis turning faster
- the outside ski only engages fully at the fall line, at which point he tips HARD and the skis finally carve and rocket around the gate
- the outside ski only takes a majority of the weight in the bottom 1/3 of the turn, just before he flexes that leg to release

SUMMARY: this is a Weighted Release/Von Grueningen turn with a Brushed Carve in the High C. Pure PMTS. No active pivoting whatsoever.

Hirscher chose this move because of the large lateral distance he had to cover between the two gates (accomplished by brushing the High C), followed by the very sharp turn needed to stay on line for the next gate (hard carve in the middle/bottom of the turn).

This is skiing at a stunningly high level, far beyond anything any of us will ever accomplish.

I expect I missed some points. Hope HH or bolter or another race coach chimes in.

[h.harb]

I don't participate on the forums because the people there who are the so called experts have been wrong for over 20 years about ski racing techniques. They were teaching and in favor of a wide stance, weighting both feet, they are and were in favor of extension, they are and were in favor of moving your hips forward, they are and were in favor of ski voting or pivoting your skis. This is standard practice by coaches who don't combine the understanding of biomechanics, physics and technique, "with racer intent". They don't hit any of those points I just wrote. It's futile to bring up logic and science with them, when they , "prefer myth".

[skijim13]

Thanks for the information I watched it on the big screen, Doug you are right I do see a weighted release. This is what I love a about PMTS it never fails us. Harald thanks for your input I wish would have taken up racing when I was young.

[DougD]

And I'd like to thank Harald for giving us the tools to understand skiing like this, and incorporate whatever of it we can into our own skiing, even as just recreational skiers. No one else has done this.

I just re-watched the video and listened to the commentary. Utterly clueless. No surpise Harald doesnt waste his time debating coaches like this.

[skijim13]

Doug if you want to get in on the fun join the PSIA teaching ideas website, this guy takes over the forum with all this crap. I was thinking about the weighted release, since steering you outside ski once you are balanced on it or engaged in the snow will cause a stem. Do racers use that move to redirect the new outside ski before they transfer balance to it as a way to tighten their turn in a quick course which the could not do fast enought if they had a one footed or two footed release and used the tipping of the inside ski to turn the stance ski? I was thinking this is what he must think is a pivot.

[DougD]

Doug if you want to get in on the fun join the PSIA teaching ideas website, this guy takes over the forum with all this crap.

Arguing with people beholden to organizational propaganda is futile, frustrating and foolish. Fun? Not so much.

Gulliver tried it when he interceded between the Big Endians and Little Endians. For daring to speak the truth, he was convicted of heresy and sentenced to be blinded - a deft satirical touch by Swift that Harald might appreciate.

I was thinking about the weighted release, since steering you outside ski once you are balanced on it or engaged in the snow will cause a stem. Do racers use that move to redirect the new outside ski before they transfer balance to it as a way to tighten their turn in a quick course which the could not do fast enought if they had a one footed or two footed release and used the tipping of the inside ski to turn the stance ski?

Harald discussed the WR in WC racing here:
http://harbskisysems.blogspot.in/2015/0 ... in-gs.html
His pics of Fenninger look just like Hirscher in your video. Harald even commented that, "Hirscher often uses this same movement even in slalom."

[h.harb]

I don't criticize skiing techniques unless they are misleading and damaging. I also don't do it unless I have better alternatives that move your skiing and technique forward. This video is by a coach who knows very little about skiing and he has used his minor influence to confuse and mislead the poor skiers who know no better.

[h.harb]

This is what you ski like if you use pivoting and steering. Compare this to our PMTS skiing, go to my Blog and look at the articles. There isn't a doubt.



These are PSIA's finest, and best skiers, they use Pivoting and Steering exclusively I don't have to describe it, it's self evident.

[h.harb]

Now compare the skiers above to the PMTS skiers on my Blog and the juniors I'm coaching who are winning major Divisional championships. This no longer needs to be a point of discussion. Anyway the guy who put up that video, can't ski, he's never coached an elite athlete and he's a very sad confused individual with big ego problems.
http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2015/05/perfecting-your-skiing-movements-during.html

[MarcS]

Thanks again Harald for protecting skiers mental and physical wellbeing.

[h.harb]

Thanks MarcS, the only way to help skiers is to keep presenting reality, so that skiers can appreciate and differentiate when they are being fooled or being told how and what works for them.

I could have easily, years ago, joined in and made tons of money selling a "PSIA like approved" version of what we do, but I couldn't lie and deceive people.

[skijim13]

Thanks Harald for PMTS it enables the everyday skier to learn the correct way to ski, it is sad that there are some many people fool the general public into thinking they are experts. The general public really has no idea who to follow and usually believe everything the PSIA tells them. I can't even convince members of my ski club to not use the wide stance in skiing the PSIA teaches. Sad they also sell videos and books to these people that will only lead them poor skiing. We can't even share a condo on our ski club group trips out west with someone else who is a PSIA believer for fear of getting into a major disagreement when we watch one of our many PMTS videos each morning before we out skiing. Many of our are fellow PSIA followers are puzzled on how we are making improvements without taking PSIA clinics. I think deep down they know PMTS works but can't break away from the PSIA hold it has on them. The PSIA even gave the weighted release the fancy name "White Pass Turn", which they just took out of the Level III test, since so many instructors were having trouble with it. If you have correct alignment it is not hard to learn to do it.

[geoffda]

This is all you need to know, right here.

[T]hese racers are not pivoting, they are releasing and tipping, which creates a lower body leg angle change and the skis follow the legs. The skiers are not twisting the skis. So the author of the pivoting article is shown for what he is, showing incorrect technical analysis. In todays skiing on the world cup this is obvious anyone who even skids or pivots slightly loses huge time. Carving is king and has been, even on 35 meter GS skis.

Just because some redirection of the skis is occurring does not mean that Hirscher is actively twisting his feet or legs. Anyone who has ever truly carved turns at a high level understands this implicitly. The so called "pivot" turn is no different technique-wise than any of the other turns. The huge release meant that he was light on his skis which meant that they reacted to tipping somewhat differently. The inputs to every turn in this clip are fundamentally the same.

When Ligety was training at Bachelor this spring I asked one of his coaches if my kids should be practicing stivots. He responded with a no. I asked if we should be doing any pivot type drills. Again he answered no. He said the kids should spend their time learning to carve every turn. When a pivot is needed to dump some speed or correct the line they already know how to do it. How do we know? Because, nearly every young racer is pivoting too much already. We are trying to get them to replace the pivot with earlier tipping and bigger angles.

The following questions were given to Steve Nyman and Kaylin Richardson-

When should a stivot be used?
What free skiing & gate drills have you found helpful to learn the stivot tactic?

Steve Nyman says:

To be frank. DONT STIVOT unless you have to. Being able to carve and go direct is way faster. We never practice the stivot and it isnt fast... You carve to gain speed and you stivot to slow down. We never train it it is just something that happens. You learn it when you learning how to wedge as a beginner skier.
Learn to carve then learn to carve tighter.



Kaylin Richardson says:

This move should only be used in a last resort/ survival situation- ie: when you are late and have no time to pressure the edge properly or on an extremely steep pitch. A sliding ski is never faster than a carving ski.

It depends on the course to be honest. Hopefully, I never use it unless it is part of my plan- for instance if there is a set with a turn that is impossible to carve and stay on line. But, as a survival move and mistake "fixer" I probably use it minimally. If it is a run that I am struggling in then I may, unfortunately be using it more often.

I think the stivot shouldn't really be taught- sliding drills should suffice when it comes to learning this move. It is more something that just naturally happens when it is appropriate and needed. Sliding the top of the turn is not a fundamental part of fast skiing... not one you want to use often!

Carving is the skill and it works everywhere. There is no need for anyone to be wringing their hands over the fact that PMTS doesn't teach you how to "slarve, pivot, skivot, redirect," or anything else that second-rate coaches inexplicably seem to want to focus on. You learn how to balance, how to move, and how to precisely control the ski when you learn to carve. When you can carve at a high level, you will be able to do all of the other stuff too. You'll be able to synthesize whatever you want on the fly.

[skijim13]

Thanks Geoff for the added information, PMTS always provides the answers I am looking for. Lorie and I will be out there in January for the short turn camp with our new Head Rebel skis, we will say at Keystone this time, and ski the mountain before camp starts.