Current WC Slalom technique vs PMTS

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All,
Just wanted to throw this one into the den…..

Please take a look at these current wc skiers free skiing and tell me if they satisfy any of the PMTS criteria…


FELIX NEUREUTHER


LINDSEY VONN


DIDIER CUCHE


I only ask as i have recently started regular race training (mid-life crisis) and i am at odds with the coaching advice that i am being given - it is opposite to the PMTS concept and more aligned with TTS. I am a complete PMTS convert, having painstakingly rebuilt my skiing from the snow up following Haralds philosophy…I am a very technical skier with an instructors qual in the 'other' philosophy.
The issue that i am facing is that when i listen to the coaching advice given - extend in the transition/ drive up in the turn, widen your stance and drop your hip into the turn etc - just like in the videos above, my slalom 'course' skiing improves dramatically. I am still working on my tipping and pulling back the inside ski, counter acting + balancing. When i get late for a gate or 'run the flush', flexing to release works a treat, but i just can't seem to generate the same amount of edge grip as using a little bit of extension during the transition.

These are the movement patterns that i now feel i am having to use:



I am training/ practicing my drills at least 2-3 times/ week and PMTS is how i ski. However i feel that i am having to dip into my toolbox of techniques and pull out the discarded old monkey wrench in order to get the job done….i will get a video posted so that you can dissect it and tell me whats going on..

[MonsterMan]

deleted, GeoffDa'sanswer is brilliant.

[geoffda]

Forget the Lindsey Vonn footage. That skiing is all about her trying to compensate for gross deficiencies in her alignment. She wouldn't ski that way if she was aligned properly and it isn't something anyone else should try to imitate.

Truthfully, I don't like the skiing shown by Cuche in that video. I wouldn't encourage anyone to emulate it. The stance is too wide, the rowing motion of the arms is disruptive, the inclination, and lack of counteracting are all weaknesses that only truly gifted athletes can get away with. For mere mortals, emulating that particular video wouldn't be the best choice. Keep in mind that video was from 2005, a year that he didn't win a single race. It would be far more interesting to compare that skiing against his skiing in a more successful year (like 2009 when he won the GS overall). The results might be telling.

When looking at Cuche and Neureuther, it is easy to think that they are "extending" in transition because, at times, both legs are getting long. However, what they are not doing is extending or pushing off to initiate the turn. What is happening is that they get so much energy when they release the ski, that their center of mass is literally propelled into the new turn. The extension you see is simply trying to keep the new outside ski in contact with the snow. The other thing that is going on is that when the release forces are strong, it is very difficult to keep the hips from rising and depending on how low the hips were at release, it may be impossible. As the hips rise, the legs do extend, but the extension happens because the hips are pulled upwards and towards the new turn, not because there is a push-off happening.

I also think with Cuche that the arm rowing makes it especially hard to see what is going on in that clip. It may be there is something extra there, but it isn't something I recall seeing when watching him race generally. He may just be messing around. Anyway, he isn't my model of technical skiing. If you want to watch somebody, watch Hirscher, Neureuther, or Schild to name a few. It is pretty easy to pick out the Essentials in the best skiers.

Granted, there are cases where racers completely blow the turn and end up having to push off, but those cases are not the ideal. Furthermore, pushing off with the inside leg is instinctive and if you ever need it, you'll do it automatically. There is no good reason to practice it; it isn't ideal.

From a technique stand-point, Neureuther is showing skiing that is worth emulating. You can see all of the PMTS Essentials in his skiing. Although it might be difficult to recognize that he is not pushing off to start his turns, it should be easier to see that he is not pushing himself into angles. You can see many cases where he is forming is angles before he even has a chance to weight his outside ski. This means he can't be pushing (because there is nothing for him to push against) and instead he is getting his angles through tipping. If you want some good analysis of Neureuther's skiing, search Harald's blog posts from last year.

In terms of your own experiences in the race course, your best bet (as you realize) is to put up some video. You also need to decide what you want to accomplish in your skiing. What your coaches are trying to get you to do produces mediocre skiing and occasionally good results if the skier is gifted enough. What PMTS movements produce are skiers who reach their full potential. I can tell you from watching racers that get PMTS training that there is no comparison. As an example, I watched some 10-12 year olds laying down hip to the snow slalom turns on a steep pitch who looked exactly like Marcel Hirscher. Their coach literally teaches right out of Essentials of Skiing and of the dozen kids I saw, most of them were Eastern Division champions in at least one event.

The thing about PMTS is that you have to have mastery of the complete set of movements before it will fully work for you. As long as you are weak in one or more Essentials, gates will be a struggle. Keep in mind that none of the movements taught in PMTS are at all natural or easy. A good analogy is Natural Golf. Yes, if you abandon the conventional grip on the club in favor of something easier and more "natural", you might gain immediate improvement over what you are doing now. If all you want to do is survive 18 holes on the golf course, that might be fine. But if you want to win a U.S. Open, you'd better have a real swing. What you are getting from your races coaches will get you down the hill, but you'll almost certainly never be a National Champion if you follow their advice. It all boils down to what you want out of your skiing and how much you are willing to put in. Tiger Woods has retooled his swing many times and has gone through the pain that has involved. It takes courage, faith and humilty to be willing to abandon what seems to be working to develop something even better. You also have to understand exactly what you are doing. If the process seems like magic, you won't be able to persevere through the tough times.

[Max_501]

Flexion or extension during the transition?

[Kiwi]

A strong two foot pull back just before or through transition can give the impression the hips are rising as the feet go back under the hips. However, this impression is not the result of an extension to initiate release.

Kiwi

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Thanks for the reply. I have no issues about breaking down my technique into its component parts and working on individual and specific areas...I will happily spend hours, even days to get it right.
I am a big mountain skier that has always been asked if I have ever raced. I am always getting comments about how much anglulation i can now generate or how i manage to effortlessly zipperline moguls. PMTS has allowed me to transcend to a higher plane that I never thought possible... All that is left for me to try is Alaskan heli skiing - I have been down most extreme chutes in Europe and ski racing. Too much cash involved with heli skiing.....
I now have a better understanding about the difference between extension in the transition and the natural upwards movement of the hips and releasing the skis energy, so thank you.

Extension in the transition made me a very aggressive and heavy footed skier. The key to unlocking my skiing was PMTS and having read all of Haralds blogs on current race technique makes me question my coaching advice.....

[Matt]

There is nothing wrong with hips rising in transition. It is a natural outcome of float after a high energy release.

However, the advice to extend in transition is completely wrong, it is focusing on the output rather than the input. If you get your hips rising in transition by extending rather than from release energy you are practicing the opposite movement pattern compared to PMTS. If you don't have a proper release I suppose it could give some short turn benefits, but as Geoff indicated that is not what you should strive for.

[geoffda]

Max_501 FTW! Thanks for putting up those clips. I could watch Schild ski all day. Even when she is fighting her skiing never varies. As much as I love watching Hirscher, I can't relate to his athleticism. That guy is super-human and I know I'll never ski like him. But Marlies Schild is perfection in motion. If you want to model your skiing after somebody, she's a great choice.

[ToddW]

Thanks for the reply. I have no issues about breaking down my technique into its component parts and working on individual and specific areas...I will happily spend hours, even days to get it right.

People refine movements and lock them in to "muscle memory" at very different learning rates. I've never seen you ski, but I have watched skiers develop at several PMTS camps, sometimes over a period of years. I suspect "hours, even days to get it right" is an aggressive schedule unless you are a natural athlete. JBotti posted a few years ago about devoting 20 days to counteracting ... and the next year he went right back to working on it.

It's true that Harald has posted before about how impressively fast some people can pick up PMTS at a high level, and you may be one of them. I know a Danish guy who went from PMTS neophyte to skiing well enough to make Harald turn his head and ask "who is that?" over a 1-week camp. But most of us take much longer, especially those with years of pre-PMTS skiing baggage. I'm in that slower category and I prefer to be there since I find the journey itself rewarding.

As Max_501 frequently points out, video and a trusted pair of eyes for MA are the best accelerant for your technical improvement other than a trained PMTS instructor. In a racing environment, it shouldn't be too hard to find someone to take video. Take advantage of it! (It took me 6 years to find someone interested in taking time out from skiing to take video. Lucky for me, he's a green level PMTS instructor so we speak a common language. Unlucky for me, he has limited on-snow days.)

[h.harb]

Maybe Max501 can put up the Dartfish piece he did of my two turns. in that piece, I am using an extreme version of upper body leaning and even reaching for the ground with the inside hand. I was fooling around, but if you look at the turns at the critical point, at max load, it's classic ski technique, which PMTS supports.

The same can be said for Bode and even Hirscher in these situations. Although Hirscher doesn't enter turns with as much obvious inclination, as Bode, the un-initiated will still believe he is too back on his skis and struggling for a recreational skier. Clearly he isn't struggling. With the forces world cup skiers can generation it allows them to live by a different set of rules. That is why you have to be very careful how you interpret World Cup Skiing for yourself. I have put up on my blog many "check points", using my skiing frames and world cup skier frames. These are all movements and goals everyone can achieve for their levels of skiing.

You won't see nearly the inclination in slalom with Hirscher and you won't see the skvoting or pivoting. Slalom is the turn test of clean technique. Those that say Hirscher is pivoting are ignorant of the movements of a world cup skier and world cup requirements. That is why you have to pick your coaches carefully. PMTS and in any analysis where I present techniques to individuals, it's based on their skiing ability and movement ability.
However, sometimes we need to generalize, if a certain technique is universally applicable, but I would never have a blue level camper release with the flexing and retraction of a Hirscher. Although the movements of releasing are basically the same, but intensity, reaction speed and strength are totally different. This can be said for every PMTS Essential and reference point from a WC skier to a Blue Level skier.

If you take every PMTS Essential and develop it to it's finite level you have Hirscher's skiing. He demonstrates PMTS at such a high level and proficiency, that even I didn't think anyone would be able to execute PMTS this perfectly and dynamically. He exceeded my exception. I've said this before, I didn't see Hirscher ski until he was 19 years old, had nothing to do with his development, and PMTS was written and documented before Hirscher showed up, yet he is the embodiment of perfect PMTS. How is this possible?

It is totally logical, Hirscher is the most efficient skier, relative to the confines of modern equipment in history. PMTS is a treatise of skiing efficiency. The two came together, it was inevitable. Tomba is the other example on straight skis.

When I watch my skiing on video, in certain turns, at my level of energy and rebound I can see PMTS skiing the way it should be. In my performance skiing DVD I see it frequently. If I were to criticize my skiing for a weakness, it would be in transition. At times I see myself with my feet wider than my knees. Is it alignment or movement? Well a little of both, my hips are narrow so if I'm really inside leg flexed up, knee to chest, and teh outside leg is long or stretched out, there is over 18 inches of vertical separation. When I release the skis my feet stay far apart when they are flat and my body comes to vertical over both skis. At this point I often see my knees closer than my feet. It's just the way my legs come out of my hips. I try to avoid this by moving the releasing foot and leg toward the LTE as early as possible. Sometimes when I flex, the release comes so fast, I don't have time. I know when I focus on this and I do practice it, my skiing improves immediately and dramatically, it becomes more aggressive and dynamic. People at camps always ask me, "what are you working on?" This is one thing I'm always working on in my skiing.

A few years ago, I did timed run tests with releasing as the focus in GS gates. When I released really aggressively with a weighted type release move, (Von Guenegen) in the appropriate part of the course, which is the semi steep, swing type turns, my speed increased dramatically. So speed in racing is directly related to giving in completely at the release and a fast transit to the new engagement. The same applies to bumps and steeps. In tennis it's called early preparation, in skiing it is transition before your skis head toward the falline. That is early preparation for the next turn in skiing. To me this is critical for Blue Black level skiers, terrain skiers, bump skiers, and racers.

I could go on and on here, but this should be enough material to digest for now.

[Kiwi]

Harald
Fascinating and very enlighting post, thanks Kiwi.

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This season I treated myself to a new pair of boots, complete with custom footbeds and alignment adjustments. As early as sept I built a slant board and spent hours practicing haralds moments... 21st nov, I hit the snow and what a difference....I was able to feel my transitions, feel the high C portion of the turn and achieve unbelievable tipping angles.
With having my alignment adjusted, my balance improved instantly, my feet naturally moved closer together (not glued together, but under my hips) - so much so that I now have deep cuts on the inside of my boots just about the ankle pivot point...
Every time I ski, I rehearse Haralds slant board transition exercises at the start of the day/ session. I also found Jay Petersons dryland exercises very helpful.

Rebuilding my transitions has been the key to my improvement. Flex to release not extend to release. I dont understand how or why 'we' have been taught movement patterns that block progression..how do you absorb whislt extending?

Just out of interest, what do you make of these movements?



I have race training this Sunday, I might try and get some video footage taken for analysis..

[h.harb]

I'm glad you found the slant board, the exercises done the way I show them are balance intensive and not easy. The top Koreans and a few Japanese I believe are the best free skiers in the world. I don't particularly like that guy who's skiing, late hits and very flat in transitions, and who wants to ski like that all day long. There are better.

Also on the previous topic, not all world cup skiers are good free skiers. Watch my Expert Video 1, near the end Thomas Grandi is free skiing and it's much better than most others I've seen. Cuche is a horrible free skier. So is Bode. In my career I was a good free skier before I skied internationally, because I liked good skiing form. I liked to watch the best skiers in powder and bumps and I wanted to free ski like them. Most racers could care less. Part of it also, is I started racing late, so I had time to develop my free skiing, we didn't train gates every day when I was racing in the 60ies and 70ies.
I skied with McConkey's Dad and Mike Wiegele, they were great free skiers and wanted to ski like them.

[h.harb]

On the Felix free skiing video, he's using lots of inclination, he's corrected that in the last year. But remember, these guys have feet like no one else. They can get away with inclination on hard ice because they can hold with their feet even if their bodies are going the wrong way.. Normal people can't. That's why it's really detrimental to teach inclination to normal skiers, they will never be solid if you do. Diana always says to me, your feet are so solid, also, my friend Hermann has feet like a hoof, he was one of the best skiers in the world. That's why you need really good footbeds from the best footbed maker. You can compensate for weak feet with good footbeds. Diana has the weakest feet I've ever seen, and she was a good National level racer starting at 30 years old. She could never have done that without the footbeds we made.

And alignment, remember PSIA told Diana she was not a good enough athlete to be a PSIA trainer. You can see what they know about athletics and skiing. Now Diana can kick their ass on any day.

[h.harb]

You can see Lindsey's screwed up canting set up even free skiing. Her right leg especially, the one she just destroyed is really bad.