Better Ski Camera?

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Better Ski Camera?

Postby John Mason » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:09 am

I've been using the JVC MC-500 for ski movies. It does not so good on pictures.

Canon has just released and you can purchase it too the Powershot S2 IS.

This is an optically stabalized 12x optical zoom camera with a movie mode that unlike most digital cameras you can use the zoom while in movie mode.

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/pss2is/sample-e.html

There is a link to samples. It's 474 too which is less than 1/2 the MC-500. It has both the view screen and a viewfinder which should help with aiming in bright sunlight. It'll do a decent job in pictures too.

I think it may be time to upgrade. (at 1/2 the cost of my prior ski movie camera)

Like the MC 500 this has instant random access viewing and transfer to computer at DV quality.

The Image Stabilization system is not electronic like the JVC MC-500 is, but mechanical. Canon really knows how to pull this IS off. That with the 12x zoom out to make for great evaluation videos.

Now I just have to find a place to ski again. Australia is 2x the cost to fly to as Chili. I haven't checked New Zealand yet.
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Postby RadRab » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:34 am

Bs"D
Hi John,
I am totally unfamiliar with the camera market, so please bare w/ my question.
Wouldn't a dedicated video camera be better than a still camera that also has a video mode - even if you can zoom while in it? Maybe they don't come small enough. (?)
Thanks
RadRab
 

Postby WTFH » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:56 am

rab, I think part of the problem is not wanting to carry too much stuff, so getting a camera that will do both well is a good way to reduce what's in your backpack.
I ski for the fun of it.
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Digital Video Cameras

Postby John Mason » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:32 am

Acutally - most high end broadcast video cameras no longer use tape, but have moved to removable hard drives.

DV tape has an actual resolution of 740x480 and records in Mpeg2 at 30fps. The JVC MC200 is designed to replace the situations where you would use a DV camcorder and records 1 hour on it's 4 gig Microdrive. The quality is the same as DV tape on that camera. The advantage of using this format over tape is 2 fold.

1. On the camera itself you have instant review of any clip without having to wait for tape.
2. On computer post processing time. On a DV camcorder you have to "play" and dump the contents to the computers hard drive. With the Digital Media recorders you just drag what you want and this dumping takes much less time.

The advantage of the Canon S2 IS which has a near DV quality of 640x480 resolution at 30fps over the JVC is:

1. 2 viewfinders. A Back of the camera one for also reviewing pics and movies, and a eyepiece viewfinder which is better for seeing what you're shooting in a ski lighting situation.

2. 12x optical zoom which lets you take shots of skiers from a long distance and follow them down the mountain. Most digital cameras with a movie mode do not let you zoom while in movie mode. The Canon I think may be the first. It's direct competitor, the lumix (panasonic) and it's clone the leica (also built by panasonic) does not allow zoom.

3. Image stabalization. The JVC tries, like most camcorders, to stabalize the image by electronic analyzation of the image. There are extra pixels not used in the sensor and the JVC and most camcorders use these extra pixels that surround the picture to "move the virtual frame" that is being shot to minimize movement. Higher end comercial cameras and Canon's own semi pro dv camcorders like the GL1, GL2 and XL series use mechanical optical stablization. The Canon S2 IS has the optical stablization. This makes it better than most camcorders (all for this size form factor) in getting a stable looking handheld long telephoto shot. This feature will greatly improve the quality over most camcorders for ski shot use.

I have tried many digital cameras with movie modes in the past. Some, like minolta's A2 don't handle movement well. Their mpeg2 compression logic/chip isn't very good. The little - very little - Canon SD500 with it's digic II chip does movies smoothly at dv quality too but can not be zoomed while taking a movie and has no Image Stablization.

It will also be nice to take good photos with the one device too, but my main reason would be high quality and low labor ski movie clips.
Last edited by John Mason on Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby WTFH » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:46 am

Just looked at the specs on that camera - very impressive.
I ski for the fun of it.
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Postby WTFH » Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:46 am

Here's a detailled review...
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/
I ski for the fun of it.
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Postby RadRab » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:27 am

Bs"D
Thanks John.
You had told me once before about the advantages of " the Digital Media recorders you just drag what you want and this dumping takes much less time", but, when i asked the above question, I was assuming that their were digital committed video cameras that would also have this advantage but be better at videos.
I guess I infer from your answer that only still cameras - also available with video modes - are digital.
If that is true, then I understand that this new one with the ability to zoom in video mode while recording is the ticket.
Thanks, take care.
RadRab
 

JVC MC200 and MC500

Postby John Mason » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:36 pm

The JVC MC200 and MC500 are most like DV cams and their picture taking is weak as they can be thought of as mainly a movie camera.

I did try the new Canon today at the store. At 12x zoom the image stabilization is very impressive. So was the speed it corrected exposure and focus from shooting out the store in the bright sun to panning to the sales clerk.

I tried the same thing with the Minolta Z5 and it couldn't do it. It never focused on the sales clerk after panning from outside.

It's also quite small when turned off.
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Postby Biowolf » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:49 pm

John:
The 474 in your first post, was that the prize ? (I hope that's not too stupid a question)
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yes - 474 us dollars from BH Photo

Postby John Mason » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:28 am

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... anon+s2+is

When you pick "add to cart" there price was 474 us

I played the test movies - quite good. The 12x zoom is going to be very nice.

Circuit city has a similar price online at http://www.circuitcity.com

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Canon-Po ... tDetail.do

There is no usefull memory card that comes with the camera or rechargable batteries. It takes regular AA rechargable NI-MH. So figure about 100 us for a 1 gig SD card and 30 for a set of NI-MH's and charger. That 1 Gig card will only hold about 8 min of video.

The MC-500 is quite a bit more money (1500) - MC 200 about 1000, but they both come with a 4 gig microdrive and the video is saved in MPEG2 instead of Motion JPEG (AVI) as on the Canon. So the 4 gig on the JVC's store about 1 hour of video which is about 2x the amount of the Canon. Both movie files from either camera compress quite well with DRDivx for e-mailing. (10 to 2 on the JVC and 20 to 1 on the Canon) Too bad neither camera has that format as an option. But for ski clips this is fine on either camera.

I compared my test movie with the Canon to the 3ccd downloadable MC500 movies that are available on-line and it actually compares quite favorably. The image stabilization is much better on the Canon.
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Postby bejes » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:48 am

JOhn, we have the panasonic lumix 12x. Quality of videos is really good. But as you say only problem is not being able to zoom while videoing.
Which after shooting numerous clips is essential for ski vids if you want mroe than 20seconds footage.
PMTS: Green
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Postby RadRab » Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:32 pm

Bs"D
Hi John M.,
I finally got around to shopping for your suggested Canon Powershot S2 IS.
But, the sales people in the (big discount Best Buy) store all said that it will NOT zoom in video record mode. ??
Were they mistaken? Are you sure that you can progressively zoom out as the skier gets closer while recording without interuption?
I am, therefore, also considering the Panasonic Camcorder w/ the 20 gig hard drive. But it is more expensive at about $750, and, from your earlier comments, it seemed that you thought that the S2 IS had better video quality than even camcorders. Does this apply to the new Panasonic as well?
Would appreciate clarification/confirmation,
Thank you very much.
RadRab
 

Best Buy Salespeople :(

Postby John Mason » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:41 pm

They are incorrect. Bring a memory card with you and try it out. That's what I did and it zooms great - with the image stabilization on - and in movie mode.

It also kept the focus on moving cars I was testing it on outside the window easiliy.

The salesperson is probably used to listening to customers complain that digicams don't zoom in video mode and doesn't realize that the Canon Powershot S2 IS is a rare exception.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canons2is/page6.asp

Check out the link above "You can even zoom while recording" as Phil tests the movie mode on this camera.

Once you have the movie btw, you can use the 30 buck Divx tool to compress about 10 to 1 to Divx. Motion JPEG is basically a series of JPEG pics played quickly so there are no movement compression artifacts like you get with cameras that implement MPEG4 in camera. Phil looked at this as a bad thing. I'd much rather shoot in Motion JPEG mode then compress with a 2 pass compresser olie Divx on a fast computer after the fact for a final production movie that won't take alot of space. This is especially important for sports/movement movie taking.

I still like this camera as a ski camera. Best I know of right now.
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Postby RadRab » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:43 pm

Bs"D
While waiting for your response, I followed the above mentioned link to the review for the S2 IS and found this text under the Movie section:
"...movie quality is superb, and the range of controls offered excellent. You can even zoom during filming (and of course the image stabilzation makes a huge difference to the 'watchability' of the results). "
So it seems that the goons in Best Buy would be the equivalent of ski salesmen at Walmart.
RadRab
 

Postby piggyslayer » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:46 am

One thing I have against this camera is that it does not have a raw option.
When taking pictures (not moving pictures) this is a bit disappointing
limitation for more advanced photographers. I also do not like the lens cap on this camera.

Image Stabilization is a great thing, and it has became quite popular in zoom digital cameras. Canon took a next step and combined IS with excellent movie mode!
Most other choices (example is Panasonic Lumix DMC FZ series) does not offer excellent movie mode.

The exception could be the new FZ 30 which has good movie mode. I have not played with Panasonic Lumix DMC FZ 30, but people more serious about photography (which includes shooting raw) and good movie mode may consider researching this camera as an option.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz30/page8.asp

I find it interesting why IS is so popular amongst zoom digital cameras. Here is my explanation:
All (or almost all) cameras which are not in the SLR ($ 1K+) category produce quite noisy pictures if ISO is set above 200.
In my opinion the noise is a result of a pixel race. To squeeze more pixels on the sensor (CMOS) manufacturers keep reducing the size of photodiodes which sense light, thus photodiode is hit by smaller amount of light and the background noise levels become more and more significant.
Photodiodes produce analog output which is later digitized by the camera circuitry.
To increase ISO sensitivity the analog signal is amplified (and so is the noise).
This explains why the new high MegaPixel cameras are so noisy.
If you want to shoot tele (in a distance) you need either fast shutter speed (which can be done by increasing ISO or/and very expensive lens with low F value) or some other way such as IS. Since the pictures above ISO 200 are all noisy the IS gives you ability to shoot with longer exposure and thus lower ISO.

I use a digital SLR and no self-respecting SLR would be caught dead with a movie option. I will envy all of you (S2 owners) the IS mode, the IS lenses are all very expensive (IS typically adds 400-600$ to the cost of the lens) and I do not have one.

I wrote all of this to share observations from an enthusiast photographer point of view.
S2 is a great camera and will produce very nice jpeg pictures if you are a point-and-shoot type of photographer. In fact I bought one for my father so do not feel bad if you have one already.

And I am 100% with John, using camcorders to capture skiing footage is a pain in the aft area, and using digital camera make it so much easier.

FYI: the typical reason why digital cameras do not zoom in the movie mode is because the focusing mechanics of the lens is typically quite loud and it messes up the audio part of recording. Canon has introduced (in some of their better lenses) a new quiet and fast ring-type USM focusing mechanism. I believe S2 is using ring-type USM which does not interfere with the quality of audio recording and is very good (I belive the best in the industry).

Robert
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let the piggy breathe
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