Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

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Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:48 pm

They had a demo day at my home mountain today. I was able to get on 4 different pairs of skis, all of them next seasons models. In the order that I skied the them:

Head e.Race Pro; 170 length, around a 15m TR. Harald skis this ski and his are from last year or the year before. He has said that they require him to be on his A game to ski them well, so I was slightly concerned when I got on them. But I loved these skis. They were tuned with a progressive base at .5 under foot and .7 at the tips (which i thought would be grabby) and they were 2 degrees on the side. Our groomers were absolute perfection with super grippy/hero Montana snow, and these skis rocked. The tips would bend pretty nicely, and the tails have less sidecut than a slalom carver, so the skis would release quickly. If you want to bring skis back uphill slightly, you have to really progressively tip all through the arc and relax the stance leg slightly past the apex. The ski brushed way better than I expected (with .5 base bevel underfoot). The skis are super quick edge to edge, super stable at speed with a glued to the snow feel and I could see owning a pair. I did not take them off piste because I figured they were too stiff for that terrain. For a skier that wants a slightly wider TR on a great carver (and a ski that probably slays ice) this would be the ticket.

Rossignol Forza: 181 length, 78mm underfoot and a 15m TR. I really enjoyed skiing these. It's a new ski for next season and it's designed as a 78mm underfoot carver. Super stable at speed, arced beautiful turns and I could bend the ski pretty well and rail some pretty tight turns. My sense was that it was too stiff for off piste skiing but I wanted to try them there. Actually, they were quite fun off-piste and not that stiff. They are super stable and I was skiing them a little faster and straighter than I might a different ski, but I was having a blast off piste with them. Vs the Blossom White Out, the ski does not bend as deep as the WO does and the WO is a little softer and better for off piste skiing. But I really enjoyed skiing these. I also liked the 181 length (I have been enjoying skiing longer skis I am 6'3" with very long legs). I think I could ski these all day in pretty much all conditions on my home mountain and have a blast. Reminded me of a thinner MX 88.

Nordica Doberman GSR: 185cm length, 20.5m TR.
The guy at the booth was pitching me on these skis, so I gave them a spin. They were a hoot. Very bendable and I was able to get more a like a 16-17M arc when I got up a little speed. Its a one dimensional cheater GS ski, but as cheater GS skis go, this was pretty sweet. Lots of fun.

Head SS e.Titan: 177cm length, 17ish TR, 84mm underfoot.
I did not love this ski. Was by far the softest flexing ski I skied all day. It's a easy ski to ski and its got a friendly flex for off piste skiing. On piste, at least for me, I wanted and need more. For me there is not enough there there. Having said that for many PMTS skiers this could be a very friendly all mountain ski that will arc on groomed and be very friendly off piste.

Tomorrow is Fischer and Kastle and I think Volkl. If I get on some more skis I will post reviews.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby enric » Thu Feb 16, 2023 10:44 am

Hi Jbotti,

thanks a lot for your very interesting ski review!

I am currently skiing 170cm eOriginal and I am very happy with them. However, as it is becoming more and more obvious each season, the amount of natural snow in the Pyrenees (and in the Alps) keeps decreasing, which means the amount of man-made snow keeps increasing. The result, slopes are increasingly becoming very, very hard-packed, with lots of ice patches (as the zillions of steerers and borders ruin the corduroy in a couple of hours) :x . You have suggested that the HEAD Worldcup Rebels e-PRO RACE skis might be a great tool for icy conditions. Do you (or HH or other distinguished PMTSers) have an opinion on the alternative (exact same measures, according to HEAD webpage) HEAD Worldcup Rebels e-RACE skis. HEAD comments on its web page that this ski is LESS DEMANDING than the ePRO RACE. I wonder if this e-RACE would be a better choice (compared to the e-Original and the e-PRO) for an intermediate pmtser on the icy conditions, or is it better to go for the PROs....for which I believe I am not yet ready :oops:....so while I definitely intend to keep improving my pmts skills on easy-snow days on my eOriginals, I feel I could get some help from a more effective tool for the icy conditions...Thanks in advance for your advice!

Also, excuse my ignorance, but when you mention the 0.5 and 0.7 BASE BEVEL, does that mean that the skis are delivered from factory with 0.0 BASE BEVEL? I have never asked my ski shop to do anything about the base bevel (just lateral bevel 2 degrees, and lately I have asked for the edges at the tips to be somewhat more aggresive)...what is the benefit of such additional BASE BEVEL tunning? any disadvantage to consider?
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:00 am

I was communicating with Harald about the e.Race pro. He is one either last years or the model from the year before. His skis are very stiff, overly stiff and a challenge for him to bend. The ski I was on (which was between a light and a royal blue) were not that stiff and I really loved them. I was pretty sure that they were the e.Race pro, but its possible that I was on the e.Race (non pro) which Harald says is a much more user friendly ski. It is quite possible that they softened the e.race Pro for next season and that is the ski that I was on. Having said that, I wouldn't want to buy the e.Race Pro and then find out that they were uber stiff and no fun to ski.

I think the e.race is the ticket for most PMTS skiers. Until I get to ski again on next years e.Race Pro, and confirm that is indeed softer, it's a ski best avoided.

I have not skied the e.Race (non pro) (although that may have been what was on). If it was its a great ski. Harald says its very nice and nicely user friendly. Hope that helps.

In Europe, both skis should be available for demo. I would try both before purchasing. In the US, both the e.Race and e.Race Pro are seriously hard to find. I was shocked the even had them at the demo day.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:14 am

On base bevel, most recreational skis come with a factory base bevel at 1 degree (although some come at less than 1 degree). True race room skis generally come 100% flat with no base bevel so the racer can choose what amount they want. Generally .5 is real grabby on any kind of western US, super grippy and reactive snow. On European man made snow, .5 degrees might be perfect. Many of the new Wintersteiger machines will do progressive tunes which give the skier the option of having less bevel under foot (for edge hold) and more bevel at the tips, too make it less grabby. Hence .5 under foot and .7 in the tips, or one can do .7 under foot and 1 degree in the tips. Not every shop can do progressive tunes. In Europe, on ice, 1 degree is probably too much bevel for ice. That's probably the same on the east coast of the US where people are on ice some good percentage of the time. Perhaps some of the East coast guys can chime in as to what base bevel they ski. My home mountain has super grippy, super reactive, western rockies snow, so 1 degree base works pretty well, although, I really did like the tune on the e.race Pro at .5 and .7.

In general, less base bevel (.5) gives super grip and hold on everything including ice, but they can be hard to brush on grippy snow. In general we are trying to find the base bevel that gives us the grip we need when arcing, but are not so grabby that we can't brush them easily and without undo effort.

Maybe Heluva will chime in as he skies on east coast ice all the time.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby JMD » Fri Feb 17, 2023 9:18 am

Hi John. I've seen a picture of next years 2024 Head Rebel e-Race Pro and Rebel e-Race Skis. The Blue Colored Skis you skied are the Rebel e-Race Pro Model. The slightly softer Rebel e-Race Skis are still covered with a Black Top Sheet.
Head is embracing the blues and has abandoned the yellow in favor of a new blue, both in accents and new graphics in their race collections. While this could easily be dismissed as NGT, these are new skis plus it is a major move for a company so identifiable on the race podium. I was unable to copy the image. JMD.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:43 am

Thanks! Then they definitely softened next years skis vs the ones HH has. As I mentioned in the original post, I really loved these skis. I do think they require strong PMTS fundamentals and again, if you want to control your speed by coming slightly back up hill at the end of the arc, you need to really tip more through the arc and soften the stance leg past the apex, to get even higher angles. But this ski I was on was very bendable, at least for me but it required some speed, which is not a problem on my home mountain because often the groomers are empty. I was on the 170cm and I am 6 3" 183 lbs and the 170cm ski is probably intended for someone shorter who weighs less (this ski comes in sizes up to 180cm) . I am not sure what size HH is skiing.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:02 am

This is the ski I was on. They don't have any sidecut/TR info on the site. I guess you can buy them now in Europe.

https://www.bettineschisport.com/it/rac ... -2024.html
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby enric » Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:34 pm

Those blue Head skis look amazing indeed! ....as much as the price tag :shock:

Thanks a lot for the very helpful comments on base bevels and the additional clarifications on the e-Race (PRO and no PRO) skis comparo.

Is the base bevel tunning reversible?
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:13 pm

Yes, as you ski any ski over time the friction from the snow will take off edge from the base thus increasing the base bevel. If you start with a 1 degree base bevel, over time you can easily get to 1.5 degrees. When this happens the skis are called base high and you can feel a slight delay between the moment of tipping and when the edges hook up. Base high skis are great for brushing, easier off piste, but much less responsive on harder snow when you want them to hook up and arc.

The solution is grinding the bases down to flat and then adding the amount of base bevel desired (.5, .7,1 degree or some progressive bevel). Shops that have the proper machines can do this. On the older machines, they require someone skilled to run the skis through the grinding process. In my experience unless you have a real pro that’s done it a ton, and has a racing background the results can be awful.

On the new machines, all of this is automated and the technician just inputs the numbers and out the skis come and they are generally perfect.

The other decision you have to make when you get a base grind is the structure on the bases. In Europe on man made snow you can handle and want more structure. On super grippy western Rockies snow in the US you want very little structure. Spring structure is the most aggressive, will not work at all on cold grippy snow, but it’s really the only thing that will allow the skis to slide well over melting snow and slush. The terms used would be a Spring structure (again, you only want this for skiing in April in May over slush), which is the most aggressive, to the lightest which would be a cold winter super light structure (suitable for cold temps on super grippy snow). Any good shop can make a recommendation as to which structure will work best for the conditions in the area.

Lastly, because each time you do a base grind you have to grind the skis flat first, you are taking off material from the edge. If you want the skis to last, you don’t want to be doing base grinds every 10-15 ski days. I do mine when they need it, usually after 50-75 ski days, or if the skis come new with too much structure for the snow at my mountain (because they would be too grabby).

Hope that helps.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:10 am

Back to the e.Race Pro, Harald is skiing next years model (same one I was on) on Tuesday and he will give me a full report.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:53 am

Harald skied the e.race Pro and the e.Race yesterday. He and Diana liked the e.race better. Next years e.Race Pro is softened quite a bit from the one that Harald has been skiing, but he said it was still a good a bit of work to bend that ski from 14.4m TR down to a 12M radius and if he tried it on softer packed snow versus harder man made, the snow washes out/breaks away as it can't handle the forces. This is very common on my home mountain, especially the day after a storm. He said you get pretty much get everything with the e.Race that you get with the e.Race Pro without all the work. They really like the e.Race. They think the e.race Pro is too one dimensional and too much work to ski it well.
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby enric » Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:24 pm

Thanks a lot jbotti for the excellent information you have provided on both issues, the comparison between eRace and ePro (great to have contribution from HH himself), and the base bevel tunning recommendations. This Forum has for many years been and still is an excellent source of information for knowledge-avid pmtsers. Lets keep it alive.... and lively :D
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Fri Apr 14, 2023 2:42 pm

So it appears that the biggest difference between the e,Race Pro and the e.Race (non Pro) is the plate. The Pro has the Head WCR plate which is their full on WC race plate which definitely stiffens the ski. The non Pro has the race plate EVO, which is their more recreational race plate and it stiffens the ski a good bit less than the WCR plate. The sidewalls are also different between the Race nd the Race pro. I got this off a video so I couldn't understand exactly what they are calling this new sidewall in the Pro, but it also stiffens the ski some. I'm sure the WCR plate adds the most in stiffness and this most likely distinguishes the two skis the most. It would be interesting to try the Race Pro ski (with the stiffer sidewalls) with the EVO (less stiff) plate and this is doable for anyone that wants to buy a different plate and play with them.

Below is the video that goes through the Pro versus non Pro skis for 23-24. They have 3 skis with Pro vs non Pro distinction, the e.Speed, the e.Race and the e.SL. I own the old i.Speed which the new e.Speed has replaced. Great cheater GS ski, but I rarely ski skis like this. You need and want speed and you want and need empty slopes or you are headed for a collision. I also have my share of slalom carvers (and I own the last version of the i.SL which is a great ski) and I am not looking for anymore. The Race line (pro and non pro) have a TR that for me is perfect, 14.4 in the 170 and 15.4 in the 175 (unsure which length I would get between these two). Arcing tight turns on a ski with a 14-15 TR even bending it down to maybe 13-14m does not wear me out the way a12m TR skis does especially when bending it down to 10-11m. I also enjoy the challenge of arcing tighter turns on a ski that has a little wider TR.

I am not surprised that HH didn't like the Race Pro as much as the non Pro because I know the WCR plate and it really does stiffen skis. I was not able to ski the Race ski with the Race Pro because that didn't have any Race non Pros to demo.

Anyway, they look like nice skis for next season. For addicts like me, maybe another to add to the quiver!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl_STvy4Tjw&t=305s
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Re: Reviews: a few skis from a demo day

Postby jbotti » Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:43 pm

Here is a brief update on the Head e-Race and e-Race pro. I got to ski yesterday with HH, Diana and Walker. Harald was skiing his new e-Race Pros in a 170 length. I don't think I have seen HH be more thrilled with a ski. We skied together for 3 hours and he was liking the ski more and more as the day progressed and kept commenting on how much performance he was getting out of the ski as he was figuring out how to ski it. At the end he said that he thinks its an even higher performing ski than his Dynastar Speedzone 16's. To be fair his Speedzones are not new, have many seasons on them , so somewhat unfair to compare them to brand new skis. But, HH loves this ski. And... its not for everyone. I think the best way to characterize the skiers that will be able to ski and truly enjoy the e-race Pro are skiers that have all the essentials in place pretty much all the time and that regularly bend skis in every arc. Harald kept commenting that if you don't bend this ski, it will want to run out from under you (not a ski to just ride the sidecut on). That comment alone tells us that intermediate skiers should stay away from this ski. For those that are at the level to bend skis consistently and manage their fore aft balance correctly through each arc, this ski will demand a higher level of proficiency and reward it in spades. Harald said that on boiler plate, it is harder to bend and harder to keep it from running ahead. On the perfect conditions we had yesterday Harald found it much easier to ski well. Its still a much more user friendly ski than the previous version, which was bright yellow. Stay away from those skis unless you have a skillset similar to Harald's.

Diana was skiing the e-Race non pro in a 170cm length. She very much likes the ski, says its quite user friendly and also has a nicely high performance band. This is the better choice for many, or probably most skiers.

I'll be on both the pro and the non Pro in December and early January and I will report back with reviews.
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