Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

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Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby mjjmjj » Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:23 pm

Still enjoying my Head Raptor RD 130's but am looking for an uphill setup to both avoid chairlifts/gondolas and also use for winter climbing approaches and general touring. Normally I ski the heavy West Coast snow but am currently based in the Canadian Rockies. Started nordic skiing last winter which besides being a great workout was an excellent way to keep moving during Covid lockdowns and got me thinking a little more about touring as a way to escape lift lines until the Covid thing settles.

I'm hoping to find a boot that will respond to PMTS but that is reasonably comfortable for day tours. It doesn't need to be super lightweight as long as it walks reasonably well (i.e. should not result in injuries, frostbite etc.!). I've just started trying out boots and to date found the best fit in the Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130. It's a 98mm last boot and reasonably low volume. Length is similar to my Raptors and the shell fit seems pretty good. It walks well and is lightweight but that means the plastic is quite thin compared to my Raptors. The flex doesn't quite seem like 130 but at my weight (160 lbs) should be workable. Forward lean isn't as bad as some boots but from memory isn't quite as upright as my Raptors. Without a doubt the thinner plastic will result in less lateral power transfer but this might be a compromise I can live with if more of my day will be walking and climbing than descending.

Another interesting looking boot is the Lange XT3 130 LV alpine touring. Heavier and with more of a downhill focus. Don't know where I can try one locally and I would like the help of a good bootfitter. But I could always travel to find it though not across the border with current restrictions (my Raptor was fitted in Dumont and adjusted at camp, those were the days! ;)

My go-to alpine skis are the Kastle MX78 and Head Rock N Roll with the former getting skied a lot more than the latter. Undecided on my AT setup yet but may add a couple of skis, something light and wider and something that I can use for uphill days at the resort/sidecountry. The latter might be a Blossom White Out with a Salomon Shift which would allow me to also use it in the resort with my Raptors.

OK, I'll leave it that for now.

As always, any and all comments welcome!

Cheers,
Mike
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby jbotti » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:16 pm

I am no expert in this area but I have spoken with HH and Diana quite a bit about touring set ups. In general touring boots suck as ski boots and most start at 100mm width (which would make them beyond sloppy for me). The boots you are mentioning are not really touring specific boots but rather options that will work for touring and I would say that if they are lighter and work for you go for it. The Hawx is a 98mm last and the Lange you mention is a 97MM last. Again if you go with a pure touring boot you are starting at 100mm and up from there. You know your foot and if wider could work. As for forward lean, your Head Raptor has considerably more than the Lange's do (16 degrees for the heads and 12 degrees for the Langes). I don't know on the Hawx.

Remember that touring set ups are about compromises. If you want super light and comfy for going up, you are going to have a set up less good for arcing turns. And vice versa, if you want to use a race boot going up (heavy and less comfortable) with a Duke like hybrid alpine binding (that one can skin with) you will have an awesome downhill set up and a less optimal skinning set up. Only you can decide what is best which should take into account how many days per year you tour, how long each uphill leg will be and how important a great downhill setup is for the way down (vs how important is being able to skin comfortably at a fast pace for many hours).

Considering that they ratio in touring is skewed towards skinning (skin for 3 hours to get 10 mins of turns on the downhill) most people that tour a lot go for an optimal setting for skinning and care less about the downhill set up. But again only you can make that decision.

Others may have additional views and/or opinions.
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby rnordell » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:20 pm

If you can tolerate the extra weight and lack of cuff articulation while touring, you could have tech inserts put in your Raptor boots. I don't think it looks like there is much extra room to combine the CAST tech insert with a canted sole (or sole planing), but maybe there is enough room for a degree of canting. If you need under-boot canting it is probably best to add it under the binding on your touring setup. https://casttouring.com/en-us/products/boot-conversion/
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby HighAngles » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:47 pm

Another option is to go with Daymakers and then you can use normal alpine boots since they don't need to have a freely articulating upper cuff. Of course this won't be anywhere near being lightweight, but your concerns regarding using a PMTS optimal boot could be take care of.
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby jbotti » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:26 am

I had never heard of or seen these Daymakers but at least for me (where I tour at most 1-2 days per year) this is a great solution. Nice find!
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby HighAngles » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:23 pm

Well my Daymakers are finally supposed to be shipping soon. I have everything else ready for my touring setup except this part (and they're kind of critical to make it all work :wink: ). I decided to use a pair of Fischer The Curv 130 shells since they had the adjustments needed for alignment, but are exceptionally light (1480g for the shell only). I then bought Palau Power LT thermoflex liners (185g) to put in them to keep the weight down to a reasonable level for a full alpine boot that I'll tour with.

I'm also working on a way to use the Daymakers without having the alpine bindings mounted on the skis. I think I've come up with a way to make it work using the PowerRail plates and the base from the toe of a PowerRail binding. I just need the Daymakers to see if it's actually going to work. Of course the bindings will have to be in the pack on the up, but that's better than being on the skis. Transitions will also take a bit longer to slide the alpine binding components back on the ski, but this may all work out fairly well. I'll report back...
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby Gene P » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:51 am

As J Botti points out, touring is a compromise when it comes to equipment. But for more than a 1000m climb - especially if repeated over a few days and even assuming only reasonable fitness, it pays to have lighter equipment. I have used Dynastar Vulcan Carbon touring boots for many seasons and find them excellent. There is a detachable carbon insert that adds to cuff stiffness for the downhill. I frankly notice little difference to my Head Raptor 130 when skiing off piste downhill but there is significant difference on the climb. No hesitation to recommend them. For completeness, I use them with either a Black Diamond Helio 88 168 (Fritschi Xenia 10 binding) or a Movement Response 89 177 (diamir eagle binding). As always, competent boot fitting advice essential. Enjoy the end of the season......touring is for sure one way to minimize COVID risk :D
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby HighAngles » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:53 pm

Some updates...

The Daymakers have been working out great. My hack to use them without the bindings on the skis has worked great. I was able to attach the base of a PR binding toe to the bottom of the Daymakers. So the Daymakers slide right onto the rails just like the bindings do. I throw the binding toes and heels into the bottom of my pack and put them on the skis at the top when I rip the skins and slide off the Daymakers. It's a mostly hassle-free transition, but obviously not ideal. However, this hack cuts a ton of weight off each leg for the uphill.

Back to the boots... The Fischer The Curv 130 boots actually worked really well for touring, but were a bit on the heavy side at about 1750g per boot in the final setup I arrived at. So I bought a pair of the Fischer Ranger 130 boots and have those setup at 1460g each. The weight savings is really noticeable on the up, but I've lost the ability to adjust the cuff alignment and the boots have much less forward lean. So my fore/aft alignment is not yet optimal, but I did add a 3mm heel shim that got the boots back to 15* of forward lean. I'm going to build some thicker shims to get them to 16* which is where I need them. For the missing cuff alignment I'm going to install some firm foam on the medial side on the interior cuff walls. It's taking a bit of work to get touring boots to work well for a PMTS skier, but it's not impossible.
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Re: Alpine touring boots that respond to PMTS?

Postby HighAngles » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:02 pm

Another update on the boots. I've learned that the Grilamid plastic used in most touring boots these days is actually fairly easy to work with via gentle heating. So much of the fore/aft and lateral stance alignment concerns can be dealt with even though most of these boots are missing adjustments like cuff alignment and forward lean modification. I heated my Fischer Ranger 130 at 175* F for 10 minutes in a convection oven to get the plastic really pliable. I then put on the boots and used a piece of furniture to stand against to ensure I maintained the correct amount of forward lean. I also placed tape strips on the floor to ensure the boots were aligned straight in my typical ski stance width. That position is held for about 20 minutes until the shells cool. The Grilamid plastic will retain the new position after cooling.

Of course this doesn't address major lateral canting done under the sole. For that you would still need to go with under binding cants since the boot soles on touring boots cannot be modified without screwing up the alignment for the tech fittings.
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