Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

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Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby RyanAllen » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:01 am

If there is another thread for this topic I apologize for missing it. But it surprises me that there isn't more concern expressed about modern integrated bindings and the significant amount of lateral play they allow. I recently got my hands on a 2016/17 Head Supershape Titan with PRX 12's out of a demo fleet reseller on eBay. Examining them on my bench, it was shocking to see how much I could rock the bindings from side to side. We work so hard to develop tipping ability in PMTS, I feel like a sloppy binding interface would be a significant performance detriment. The observations of these SS's (which were in excellent condition BTW) got me thinking about other experiences on integrated bindings and comparing them with the feel of being on a race plate system instead. I feel like there is a significant difference. My Dyna SL's and older SS magnums (free flex w/ plates) seem to ski with more immediate edge engagement or less feeling of ambiguity. I am sure a lot of forum members are on the newer SS's with the integrated setup, so, are there opposing feelings about this? I really am convinced that plates or just direct mounting is superior. Also, I am skiing predominantly in Michigan - hard snow and icy race courses. Maybe it isn't so critical on soft snow? Thanks.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby Max_501 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:43 am

With regards to the Titan you might want to read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4888

I don't feel any performance difference between integrated rail bindings and race bindings.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby ErikCO » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:13 am

That sounds more like an issue with the rail or the bindings. I have a number of skis with rails (SS Speed, Rev80 for both my father and myself) and none of them have any significant lateral play. I also have an iSL with a race plate and freeflex bindings. I can't say I notice any difference between the skis that would be attributed to the bindings.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby HighAngles » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:05 pm

I have investigated and tested this issue extensively across my fleet of skis and boots. I have a lot of skis, let's just leave it at that. ;)

First, the major issue that must be understood before you assess any ski binding's lateral rigidity, is that the height of the rear heel lug of your ski boots is absolutely crucial to having a strong interface between the boot and binding. The ISO 5355 standard states that the heel should be 30mm +/- 1mm. However, in my testing I have found that ANYTHING less that 30mm will result in reduced lateral rigidity for any binding. I use a digital caliper (with plunge depth) with a triangle square for accuracy when measuring the heel height. If the heel is below 29mm - just forget it... you really need to either plate it or shim the lug.

The toe lug height is less of a concern for the rigidity issue because it must have some clearance for the binding release to work properly. The ISO spec is 19mm +/- 1mm, but almost all techs will router a toe to 20mm (the maximum allowed). 'Just know that lateral rigidity is "born" in the heel.

That all said, there is an absolute difference between bindings types when it comes to lateral rigidity (as the OP noted). The most rigid setups in my fleet are those on race plates (or Tyrolia/Head Speed plates) coupled with a high DIN race-type binding (think FreeFlex 14/15 or higher OR the new EVO series). The PowerRail series bindings aren't bad, but they are not as laterally stiff as a race plate setup. There is some movement in the rail system. The PR is a bit better than the older Railfex II system. Note that the width of the plate/rail also has some impact on the "stability" of the connection. Wider is better.

BTW - The way I test this is by clamping the ski down to my tuning bench (don't use the ski vises). I use 4 large Irwin clamps with 2 directly next to the binding's toe and heel and the other 2 at the ski's tip and tail, so that the ski is flat on the bench. I then put the boot in the binding and measure the angle from between the ski surface and the rear spine of the boot (lower clog). I then push on the boot cuff laterally and note that amount of movement seen. I have detailed data on this stuff.

At the end of the day, whether or not you notice this (or it's important to you) depends on your goals and the ski conditions you generally ski. Obviously in softer conditions this probably is not noticeable and less of a concern. The harder the snow and the wider the ski, the more this becomes an issue.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby Max_501 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:17 pm

RyanAllen wrote:But it surprises me that there isn't more concern expressed about modern integrated bindings and the significant amount of lateral play they allow.


I'd suggest comparing the play in those bindings to a new pair to see if they are out of spec.

I have no problem skiing with integrated or demo bindings regardless of the conditions or width of the ski. I've skied the Elan SLX with integrated bindings on blue ice and they were rock solid and tipped without any noticeable delay.

In this shot I'm on a ski that is 110 at the waist and they are mounted with DEMO bindings, again no issues that I noticed.

Image
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby ErikCO » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:26 pm

Obviously, from a physics perspective, it is going to be harder (or impossible) to make a binding that is depending on a rail and some latching mechanism be as sturdy as something that is screwed to the ski with 4 screws. And if you do a test like HighAngles describes, you will inevitably find some play in the bindings. That is the trade off for being able to easily change boot sole length and fore/aft position. However, if it is enough that it actually affects your skiing, my first thought is that something is wrong with the equipment. I actually was talking with one of the folks at HH's store recently about rail bindings and was told that the rail may need tightening from time to time. If you picked up an ex-rental/demo, I wonder if the rail itself is loose. The binding itself may also be an issue with the binding itself having been slid up and down rails so much that some of the plastic has been removed.

While not anywhere near as impressive as Max's tipping/angles, here is a recent video screen grab from me on a pair of 2 year old SS Speeds with PRD-MBS bindings on a rail.
Image
Not quite the same angles as Max (OK, that's an understatement), but still significant tipping and no problems with binding play. And aside from differences in actual ski geometry (11.5m vs 14m) along with a straighter tail, I notice no significant differences in responsiveness between these skis (170cm SS Speeds) and my plated skis (165 iSL from 4 years ago).
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby noobSkier » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:38 am

Just compared my SS kers, SS speed and Elan SLX 2018. The head skis have some play between the ski and binding, the elan has no play whatsoever. Could be glued to the carbon fibre plate. Maybe that's part of the reason why the elan holds better on ice...also a much stiffer ski. I very much prefer the SLX, and like you I ski on ice frequently.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby HighAngles » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:53 pm

In re-reading my post, I don't think the key takeaway was clearly stated. Unless your bindings are damaged, worn out, or installed incorrectly, your boot soles and the thickness of your lugs are way more critical to the lateral rigidity.

I checked all the boots I had sitting around the house (about a dozen pairs). Not a single pair sat completely flat when placed on a perfectly flat "reference" slab of granite I have. All the pairs had at least one boot (if not both) that suffered from some degree of a sole warp problem.

To check this, you'll need a solid flat reference "table" that you trust. Place the boot on the table and then use a thin flat card to test how well the boot soles are meeting the table surface. A business card is too thick. I use the card stock stuff that generally comes in the mail for advertising. It's stiffer than a piece of paper, slightly thicker than typical paper, and longer along the edges than a business card. Try to slide this card stock between the sole and the table at multiple points all around the soles. If the sole is perfectly flat, then you won't be able to slip the card into any gaps along the edges of the sole.

If you do find gaps or any more serious warping, the soles can be planed on a jointer or if you have the patience they can be flatted using sandpaper taped to the surface of your reference table (or something similar). Of course you must still be careful about the lug heights (and cant angles) if you're going to remove any material from the bottom. A "good" lifter plate install will usually have the boot soles flattened before the plates are added to ensure that they sit correctly on the sole. I have also found that some plates are not perfectly flat, so after the plate installation, it's not a bad idea for the boots to be flattened on the jointer again (just to be sure).

I know this info is a bit of a sidetrack from this thread about bindings, but my point is there should generally be less concern about the lateral rigidity of the bindings themselves and more awareness about how critical your boot soles and lug heights are.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby CurtShreve » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:40 pm

Replace wear inserts to snug toe and heel.
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Re: Race Plates vs. Integrated Rail Bindings

Postby RyanAllen » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:53 am

Thank you for the posts everyone. I read each of them and appreciate your feedback!
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