Flex for the First Time Skier

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Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby 75phoenix75 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:12 am

Hi all,

Lots of recommendations on this forum for boots at 130 flex and higher but it seems most "new to PMTS" skiers have considerable experience on the slopes. As that is not the case for me, do you think starting with a 100 flex is appropriate for a first time skier? Specifically looking at the Lange RX 100 LV. I'm a 168 lbs, 5'11" male.

Thanks!
Rob
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby DougD » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:05 am

No. Soft boots do not respond to skier movements. You move your foot... nothing happens to the ski. This prevents progress in learning to ski.

The fitters at HSS put my partner (a virtual never-ever) in a 120 flex boot plus custom liners that stiffened it to 130 or so. You're taller and heavier, so it's unlikely they'd recommend anything softer for you.

FYI, fit is even more important than flex. As you're an inexperienced skier, it's unlikely you have the ability to assess this. Most skiers - and most shops - choose boots that are too large and often the wrong shape besides. No one on this forum is likely to offer advice on Lange or any other boot before your feet have been evaluated by a qualified PMTS fitter. Recommending specific brands or models without expert knowledge of a skier's anatomy has a high error potential.

The advice you'll see repeated here by dozens of people who've been through the experience, is to contact HSS, make an appointment and get fitted and kitted properly from the get-go. Skiing in wrongly fitted or mis-aligned boots will force you to adapt your movements. Every time you ski your body will be learning ineffective movements that you'll just have to unlearn later. Virtually every person here who's been fitted by HSS has only one regret, that they didn't do it sooner.
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby 75phoenix75 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:32 pm

Hi Doug,

I couldn't agree with you more about getting setup by HSS but a trip to CO isn't in the cards for me for a couple years. I'm trying to do the best I can with the resources I have available locally. It's a shame there are no PMTS fitters in the New England/New York area - definite market opportunity here.

I had a fitting done by a pedorthist who's an old-school skier and also a boot fitter. I had read the PMTS alignment manual before going to see him and while he is not PMTS certified, his overall views on footbeds seem generally compatible (support the arch but don't lock it up - allow some flex so that the foot muscles can engage). His approach to fitting also seemed on target (aim for 15mm shell fit). His argument with respect to flex was that I should look for boots with stiff lateral flex to respond to tipping but that as a beginner having softer fore/aft flex would allow me to get forward more readily. His concern was that as a complete newbie, a stiffer boot could put me in the backseat and retard my progress. He recommended the Lange RX 100 after cross checking my foot volume and shape with a database of boot dimensions he has.

In this post http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=3488&p=35664#p35666, Harald mentions that some of his Green camp students do fine with 100 flex boot given the speed and terrain they ski but I don't want to read too much into that since in many other comments he advocates for a stiffer boot. I can understand how with a complete and proper PMTS alignment, a stiffer boot would help support me in the proper position. I am wondering whether, in the absence of that, the softer flex would allow me to more easily compensate for what I presume will be a somewhat imperfect alignment setup?
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby DougD » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:26 pm

Rob, great input & questions!

If you read that post of Harald's carefully, you'll note that he was discussing 100 flex boots for a 120lb woman as being equivalent to a 130 flex boot for a 170lb man. As you're a 170lb man...

A stiffer boot will not put you in the back seat. Incorrect movements put you in the back seat. Your TTS-trained pedorthist is presumably unfamiliar with effective movements, so I'd take his skiing guidance with a grain of salt.

An overly forward footbed angle or excessive cuff forward lean CAN put you in the back seat, but today's Lange RX boots don't have those issues. IF Langes fit you properly, they're a good boot for PMTS skiing. I ski the RX 130 myself (cants, footbeds and liners by HSS). I weigh just 130lb and they've never been too stiff for me, especially with the stock liners.

FYI, the RX 130 has two user-removable cuff screws. If you find the boots too stiff at first, just remove one or the other (not both) to soften them. Replace them as you get more comfortable with the boots. (P. S. Use Loktite or split washers on the scews, they fall out easily.) I tested this when I first got the boots and it definitely works... major softening available.

There's a PMTS shop near Pittsburgh. Search for posts by "zuschauer". At a minimum, call HSS to discuss. They can give you better guidance than I could.
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby 75phoenix75 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:21 pm

I appreciate the advice Doug. I'll steer clear of the 100s. Thanks for pointing out that the Rx 130 has flex adjustment via the removable cuff screws. That's a good safety net in case I find myself struggling too much with the boot. Then again, what I am inferring is that if I'm fighting with the boot flex it probably means my movements are incorrect anyhow.
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby DougD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:15 pm

75phoenix75 wrote:Then again, what I am inferring is that if I'm fighting with the boot flex it probably means my movements are incorrect anyhow.

True, though I doubt you'll have that particular problem very often.

A boot can seem (or be) too stiff in 2 circumstances:

1. The skier INTENTIONALLY pressures the front of the boot to engage the tip of the ski to shorten a turn. If the boot is too stiff, he won't be able to stay on the boot tongue and control ski tip pressure.
- When learning to ski with PMTS movements, this kind of movement is a fairly advanced one. You won't be asked to it any time soon. By the time you've advanced to this level, a 130 flex boot will seem too soft, if anything.
- OTOH, TTS skiers are taught to use constant ski tip loading from day 1... it's called a wedge or snowplow. A too stiff boot makes this difficult and/or painful. This may be the situation your traditional skiing pedorthist was worried about, but since PMTS skiers NEVER learn a wedge or snowplow, this situation will not occur.

2. The skier ACCIDENTLY pressures the front of the boot A typical example would be slamming into the top of a mogul - WHAM! - without being prepared or while skiing incorrectly. As a novice, you won't (shouldn't) be skiing moguls. By the time you're ready to try, you'll be used to the boots. I weigh 40 lbs less than you, but even when skiing very nasty bumps I've never wanted a softer boot.

Good luck! Hope we get to ski together some day.
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby Cipivts » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:10 pm

Fully agree, after a lot of research and similar discussion in similar post here, i ended up getting the nordica dobie gp 130. i am surprised how good the flex feels even if 130, as i was expecting it to be way too stiff. i am 182cm and 80kg. Previous boots nordica firearrow f1 had flex rating 135, but even setup on soft ,they were still way to stiff for me.
I think it's a lot of marketing involved in this, as producers can sell a higher price boot, with higher quality materials of course, making customers think they get a closer version of the true race boot
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Re: Flex for the First Time Skier

Postby 75phoenix75 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:25 pm

DougD wrote:A boot can seem (or be) too stiff in 2 circumstances:


Been trying to wrap my brain around this, and your excellent explanation helped the pieces fit together. Thank you!
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