Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby skiffie » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:03 pm

jbotti wrote:Cannot emphasize enough how important and beneficial it is to ski on sub 70mm waisted skis when learning and advancing with PMTS movements. It is universally true that all skiers new to PMTS do not tip to the level necessary and tipping is always everyone's first SMIM. Hence making tipping harder (with a wider ski) does nothing but slow one's progress. Good/advanced PMTS skiers regularly tip wider skis to high angles with no issue but this occurs after years of solidifying their tipping skills.


I know and I realize this but I have a price crunch right now, and these are perfectly placed and probably the best I can do. I've done ok on 78mm skis so I feel like I will survive 86. I'll just have to work harder and be more careful. Hence the only thing I'm really worried about is any knee strain.
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby DougD » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:44 am

Have you noticed this thread? Best PMTS learning skis ever, for an attractive price.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5012

John has explained already, but "doing ok" on 78mm skis, or worse, 86mm ones, tells you nothing about how they'll behave when trying to use PMTS movements. My 81mm skis impeded progress because of their width. So will an 86mm ski, even more so.
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby skiffie » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:20 am

Unfortunately 170 is way too long for me. Also, they put me on a pair of the shop's Head skis at camp and they really didn't feel right.

I meant that I've done okay at PMTS on 78 mm skis, it's what I used at camp. I know 86 isn't ideal but I'll just have to work harder.
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby DougD » Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:47 pm

skiffie wrote:... they put me on a pair of the shop's Head skis at camp and they really didn't feel right.

Every coach and PMTS expert on this forum has posted, numerous times, that relying on one's feelings is counter-productive .

When making motor movements, the only ones that "feel right" are one's habitual movements, which are what we're trying to un-learn.

If the most suitable PMTS skis feel wrong, this tells us nothing about the skis. It tells us only that the skier's habitual movements are not in accordance with PMTS methods.

Students should be embracing this discomfort, not avoiding it. Buying gear that "feels right" will only reinforce old habits.

I meant that I've done okay at PMTS on 78 mm skis, it's what I used at camp. I know 86 isn't ideal but I'll just have to work harder.

Indeed.

What length ski do you need?
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby skiffie » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:03 am

DougD wrote:
skiffie wrote:... they put me on a pair of the shop's Head skis at camp and they really didn't feel right.

Every coach and PMTS expert on this forum has posted, numerous times, that relying on one's feelings is counter-productive .

When making motor movements, the only ones that "feel right" are one's habitual movements, which are what we're trying to un-learn.

If the most suitable PMTS skis feel wrong, this tells us nothing about the skis. It tells us only that the skier's habitual movements are not in accordance with PMTS methods.

Students should be embracing this discomfort, not avoiding it. Buying gear that "feels right" will only reinforce old habits.


Hmm, but I was making good progress learning to tip, roll, etc. on my own skis, and then as soon as I went on those Heads I felt like I was taking a step back. (Mine are already stiff and hold an edge really well, so it wasn't a case of them just being easier to ski.) I would assume there's still room within PMTS for each skier's individual quirks (body weight, centre of gravity, etc.)?

I meant that I've done okay at PMTS on 78 mm skis, it's what I used at camp. I know 86 isn't ideal but I'll just have to work harder.

Indeed.

What length ski do you need?


158 at the most. :)
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby DougD » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:02 am

skiffie wrote:Hmm, but I was making good progress learning to tip, roll, etc. on my own skis, and then as soon as I went on those Heads I felt like I was taking a step back.
Were the step back and your suggested reason for it both confirmed by a PMTS coach? IOW, did a coach actually say, "For you, those Head skis are not helpful for learning PMTS."? If not, see my comment on "feelings" above.

skiffie" wrote:(Mine are already stiff and hold an edge really well, so it wasn't a case of them just being easier to ski.)
Stiffness and edgehold are not useful indicators of a ski's suitability for PMTS learning. I still have a pair of straight Volkl GS skis from the 1980s. They're monstrously stiffer than any modern ski. They hold an edge on injected racecourse ice better than any modern ski short of a WC model. They are also the worst possible ski for learning PMTS.

skiffie wrote:I would assume there's still room within PMTS for each skier's individual quirks (body weight, centre of gravity, etc.)?
Certainly. The HSS website includes (or used to include) a list of tested and recommended skis for a variety of skiers and snow conditions.

DougD wrote:What length ski do you need?

skiffie wrote:158 at the most. :)


You might consider the Head Pure Joy. I believe it was skied and recommended by HSS (you might want to confirm). If money's tight, used pairs are available (through Nov. 1) here:

http://www.powder7.com/Head-Pure-Joy-Skis/for-sale

Good luck!
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby Max_501 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:30 am

skiffie wrote:I would assume there's still room within PMTS for each skier's individual quirks (body weight, centre of gravity, etc.)?


PMTS teaches the Essential movements of skiing which are consistent regardless of body type and we like to use skis that are known to reward PMTS movements.

For learning a sub 70mm waist is recommended because it is much easier to learn tipping on a ski in that range. From a PMTS perspective 80mm+ is a powder ski width.
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby dan.boisvert » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:11 am

skiffie wrote:I know and I realize this but I have a price crunch right now, and these are perfectly placed and probably the best I can do. I've done ok on 78mm skis so I feel like I will survive 86. I'll just have to work harder and be more careful. Hence the only thing I'm really worried about is any knee strain.


Can you keep your 78mm waist skis for firmer snow days? At your size, I'd expect something 86 underfoot to put noticeable strain on your knees on hard snow. I'm 5'7" and 160lbs or so, and notice the additional strain my 95mm powder skis put on my knees vs my 78mm all-mountain skis on hard snow. I also have 68-70mm skis for days when I won't be in the trees, and especially eastern hard snow days. I do notice how much easier those are to tip than the 78's, but don't notice a difference in knee strain between those two widths. YMMV with knee size, health, and age.. :)
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby skiffie » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:31 pm

dan.boisvert wrote:
skiffie wrote:I know and I realize this but I have a price crunch right now, and these are perfectly placed and probably the best I can do. I've done ok on 78mm skis so I feel like I will survive 86. I'll just have to work harder and be more careful. Hence the only thing I'm really worried about is any knee strain.


Can you keep your 78mm waist skis for firmer snow days? At your size, I'd expect something 86 underfoot to put noticeable strain on your knees on hard snow. I'm 5'7" and 160lbs or so, and notice the additional strain my 95mm powder skis put on my knees vs my 78mm all-mountain skis on hard snow. I also have 68-70mm skis for days when I won't be in the trees, and especially eastern hard snow days. I do notice how much easier those are to tip than the 78's, but don't notice a difference in knee strain between those two widths. YMMV with knee size, health, and age.. :)


That's GREAT to know, thanks. The 86s would be at Whistler - I'm not sure where you ski, but we are blessed with fairly soft snow, so I'm hoping it won't be a problem, especially as I literally cannot find anything narrower at the same price, in any brand lol. (I've been looking, based on this thread, and even enlisted a my dad's internet sleuthing skills - he only turned up the exact same Interras for exactly the same price at a store in Italy :? :lol: !) Your 95mm powder skis sound like the same problem I had with my 107s. And yes, the plan is to keep the 78s in Europe, where it's usually firm snow!
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby NoCleverName » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:15 am

Now I'm the guy who regularly gets beat up because I like the 80mm Titan ... but I can tell you this: there is no such thing as "refined movements" on 76+ skis. I used the Titans for a few weeks because conditions last year in NE were too terrible for my worn out 66mms. When I went back to the 66's it seemed like I was on 40's and it took a while to regain proper sense of balance. The wide skis have their place but it's not for learning.

I said before that PMTS works for any ski ... including wide skis. But first, you actually have to know something about PMTS. It is unlikely to learn the true range of possibility of PMTS with anything over 72. And that being the case, you can't get the most out of any ski or skiing situation without a good PMTS foundation.

Yes, you can more or less learn PMTS on wider skis but your learned movements will overwhelm the narrower skis, you won't have true balance, and you'll be back to square one. So then why even bother with the narrow skis then? They are a far better choice in groomed and even 6-12" of well-behaved snow. I only use the wide body's for severely "reused" snow in which the narrow skis don't have enough keel to maintain a good course.

So the PMTS'ers who were beating me up for the Titans were right from the standpoint they were coming from: learning PMTS. But I argue a different point: once you learn to "drive" the narrow ski with PMTS you can drive any ski better. You need to learn narrow and then pull out other skis when conditions (or just place whimsy) demand. The reverse really doesn't work.
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Re: Is there a verdict on tip and tail rocker?

Postby Max_501 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:52 am

NoCleverName wrote:So the PMTS'ers who were beating me up for the Titans were right from the standpoint they were coming from: learning PMTS. But I argue a different point: once you learn to "drive" the narrow ski with PMTS you can drive any ski better.


The statement that the Titan posts were from a "learning PMTS" standpoint is a mis-characterization of that discussion. And there is a big difference between width (which makes a ski harder to tip) and ski design (which can lead to good or bad performance). None of us has better mastery of the PMTS movement than Harald Harb and this is what he wrote:

h.harb wrote:Head totally blew it with the Titan. It's s stiff board that bucks and kicks on chop or crud and it's heavy and slow side to side.


PMTS movements can't overcome a ski design that doesn't reward those movements.
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