Ski Question

[kirtland]

Max_501, Your response is a non sequiter.
I made no claim to the relative stiffness or camparison between the Head iSL and iSL RD.
I thought I was clear, that I was unsuccessful in locating the different skis in question to demo.
My question was " if anyone has demoed the '14-'15 Head iSL RD and what their experience was? Since they seem to have been ignored on the forum."
From your indirect response, I conclude that you have not demoed the iSL RD and that conjecturally you have determined they are "too stiff" and dismissed them without any actual experience, with their actual skiing characteristics.
I thought others were possibly doing the same and thought it worthwhile to relate my observations about the Head iSL RD 165cm 13.1R that concurred with RealSkiers.com Jackson Hogan and Peter Keelty's personal review of the ski. Most specifically that it was unlike other FIS SL skis in some of it's characteristics particularly forgiveness and versatility.
I am not making any conjectural claims how it compares to the Head iSL 165 cm 11.5R or iSupershape Speed 163cm 13.2R, only that it was much more docile than I anticipated.
If someone as old, stiff and slow as I am can handle and enjoy it, then there are plenty of others out there younger quicker and more flexible, than I, that can enjoy it.

[Max_501]

I made no claim to the relative stiffness or camparison between the Head iSL and iSL RD.

For the RD to be as docile as you say it would have to flex like the iSL.

From your indirect response, I conclude that you have not demoed the iSL RD and that conjecturally you have determined they are "too stiff" and dismissed them without any actual experience, with their actual skiing characteristics.

I have been on a few of the RD's over the years, I even own a pair for racing. Very hard to believe that Head decided to soften the RD to the point that it would be a good ski for recreational skiers.

Jackson Hogan and Peter Keelty's personal review of the ski.

Did they post a video review?

If someone as old, stiff and slow as I am can handle and enjoy it, then there are plenty of others out there younger quicker and more flexible, than I, that can enjoy it.

Without video of you skiing it, how does anyone know if the feedback is accurate? For that matter how do you know? Feelings are not trustworthy in this context.

[jbotti]

If someone as old, stiff and slow as I am can handle and enjoy it, then there are plenty of others out there younger quicker and more flexible, than I, that can enjoy it.

Many of the best PMTS skiers that I know including Harald and Diana choose not to ski on the Head ISL RD because it is too stiff and too demanding for everyday skiing. So I guess your impression is contrary to what we know to be true. If you don't bend the ski and don't go for maximum performance on each turn (hence get little or no rebound) it skis easier but then why ski it.

[DougD]

Harald recently stated that Jackson Hogan's reviews are becoming less reliable from a PMTS perspective:

http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4519&hilit=jackson#p46256

Without video - as Max requested - we can't know whether Hogan's statements about a ski's performance are based on PMTS movements. The RealSkiers site is a smorgasbord of skiing methods. Some are PMTS but many are not.

If someone as old, stiff and slow as I am can handle and enjoy it, then there are plenty of others out there younger quicker and more flexible, than I, that can enjoy it.

"Enjoying" an FIS/RD ski is one thing. Enjoyment is subjective and, like any feeling, may bear no relation to the reality of the skiing. I've enjoyed tumbling ass over teakettle in deep powder, but it wasn't because of my BPST!

"Handling" an FIS/RD ski, by the standards of this forum, is another thing altogether. Handling a ski to PMTS standards is an objective skill that can be verified by independent eyes, and must be when unlikely claims contradict the findings of PMTS experts.

Color me skeptical.

[jbotti]

It seems that many people have a tough time understanding that certain equipment not only won't help you improve but it can and will actively get in the way of progressing. Most new students of PMTS work for 2 years on their tipping before they can start to address other issues in their skiing. Many who post regularly on this forum are actually still in that camp whether they wish to admit publicly or to themselves. Once tipping is fully in place we see people working on flexing and eliminating the dreaded up move so engrained in many somewhat accomplished skiers (before they came to PMTS). In this phase their is usually very heavy work on super phantom releases (to eliminate the stem that still exists). Then its onto CA and CB. And right about this time (solid tipping, flexing, no up move, solid CA and CB) and when people's fore aft balance is truly dialed in (yeah probably a month or more of flappers) then the lightbulb goes off and they start to bend the ski. The arcs start to really tighten, they start getting serious rebound in each turn (often times so much that they can't control it).

Now if you are still working on tipping, or still trying to eliminate and up move, or still stemming some in your turns we can say with reasonable certainty that you are not bending skis and not getting the performance and rebound that good PMTS get and are accustomed to. You will have to forgive us if we often disagree wholeheartedly with the ski reviews from students that are still working on tipping, flexing, stemming etc. The goal in PMTS is to bend the ski in every arc. Until you can do this you can't really make commentary on what is a good ski for PMTS or bad one. This may sound insensitive but is the cold hard truth. It's also why we fight so hard to avoid misinformation and reviews that are just falat out wrong from the perspective of PMTS coaches and upper level PMTS skiers.

And it is true that certain skis will hurt your skiing. The Metron B5 is a great example of a ski that teaches people to ride the sidecut because it is too stiff to bend. The SS Titan (that we are constantly hearing about its greatness from PMTS skiers that can't bend skis) is another ski that is too stiff to bend. Remember if a ski can't be bent by definition you will never bend it, so you will do everything else, and that is bad for your skiing.

If it makes anyone feel any better, most of us (me included) have had to learn this same lesson over several years. Max loved the Metron B5 and used to debate with Harald on it. As his skiing improved he realized that Harald was right.

I know that everyone feels like their feelings and impressions on skis are valid. I guess on some level they are but unless you are skiing with all the essentials in place a good percentage of the time, those feelings and impressions can be and are wrong a good deal of the time.

[kirtland]

You are all being purely conjectural. Why don't you go ahead and demo a pair, and see if your conjectural opinionated biases are valid. I hope you are all skiing on skis you personally like, not ones based on someone else's opinion, and especially not what someone else looks like, when they ski on a particularly ski. For me skiing is a purely sensual sport and that is the pleasure of it, particularly at this end of my life.
The hazard of committing yourself too much to a conjectural bias, and prejudging, is it gets in the way of being able to be objective and perceptive. I just finished a book "Brilliant Blunders: from Darwin to Einstein" by Mario Livio, that tells how some truly brilliant people, fell into that logical trap.

[jbotti]

No conjecture here at all, I own a pair of Head ISL Rd. I know the ski well.

[Max_501]

The hazard of committing yourself too much to a conjectural bias, and prejudging, is it gets in the way of being able to be objective and perceptive.

And yet your review of the the skis is subjective until you have confirmed via video or a coach.

[DougD]

I hope you are all skiing on skis you personally like, not ones based on someone else's opinion... 

Why did you post a review on an internet forum, if not to inform others of YOUR personal opinion?

For me skiing is a purely sensual sport and that is the pleasure of it...

You've been here long enough to to know that's not what this forum is about. The Gear forum is dedicated to equipment that helps skiers improve with PMTS movements.

3 PMTS coaches plus jbotti, who's worked hard on his PMTS skills for years, are unanimous. Your feelings-based report is the outlier. I've had fun on several race skis myself, but they didn't all support good skiing and some were detrimental, as jbotti explained.

Again, in response to your report vs. theirs, color me skeptical.

[speedcontrol]

It seems that many people have a tough time understanding that certain equipment not only won't help you improve but it can and will actively get in the way of progressing. Most new students of PMTS work for 2 years on their tipping before they can start to address other issues in their skiing. Many who post regularly on this forum are actually still in that camp whether they wish to admit publicly or to themselves. Once tipping is fully in place we see people working on flexing and eliminating the dreaded up move so engrained in many somewhat accomplished skiers (before they came to PMTS). In this phase their is usually very heavy work on super phantom releases (to eliminate the stem that still exists). Then its onto CA and CB. And right about this time (solid tipping, flexing, no up move, solid CA and CB) and when people's fore aft balance is truly dialed in (yeah probably a month or more of flappers) then the lightbulb goes off and they start to bend the ski. The arcs start to really tighten, they start getting serious rebound in each turn (often times so much that they can't control it).

Now if you are still working on tipping, or still trying to eliminate and up move, or still stemming some in your turns we can say with reasonable certainty that you are not bending skis and not getting the performance and rebound that good PMTS get and are accustomed to. You will have to forgive us if we often disagree wholeheartedly with the ski reviews from students that are still working on tipping, flexing, stemming etc. The goal in PMTS is to bend the ski in every arc. Until you can do this you can't really make commentary on what is a good ski for PMTS or bad one. This may sound insensitive but is the cold hard truth. It's also why we fight so hard to avoid misinformation and reviews that are just falat out wrong from the perspective of PMTS coaches and upper level PMTS skiers.

And it is true that certain skis will hurt your skiing. The Metron B5 is a great example of a ski that teaches people to ride the sidecut because it is too stiff to bend. The SS Titan (that we are constantly hearing about its greatness from PMTS skiers that can't bend skis) is another ski that is too stiff to bend. Remember if a ski can't be bent by definition you will never bend it, so you will do everything else, and that is bad for your skiing.

If it makes anyone feel any better, most of us (me included) have had to learn this same lesson over several years. Max loved the Metron B5 and used to debate with Harald on it. As his skiing improved he realized that Harald was right.

I know that everyone feels like their feelings and impressions on skis are valid. I guess on some level they are but unless you are skiing with all the essentials in place a good percentage of the time, those feelings and impressions can be and are wrong a good deal of the time.

I agree with everything said in this post and I feel exactly the same way. I've always wondered why we discuss gear and equipment that much. Everything that we need to know has already been said by HH and we all know the best PMTS gear out there (also for different PMTS levels). We see all the skis and boots for sale in the shop and he gives (from time to time) his opinion on other models as well.I hope he will come for 15/16 with a small update of the old thread '' Best Performance Skis 2011/2012 '' so we will know if anything new and trustworthy is there.

[François]

I am a high level intermediate skiier looking to start out on PMTS

I am about 155 Lbs 5'9. I have a pair of DYnastar Omeglass TI SL skiis, 165-

Should I opt for a different pair to emphassize tipping and bending of the ski?

These are on the firmer side, and I find myself in the backseat on the second half of the day

I have not been on that particular ski, but from family resemblance in my experience the Dynastar line as compared to others (e.g. Fischer) is not particularly stiff. But what really matters is what you do with the ski, and how you do it. When you look at your tracks do you see nice clean grooves laid down in a curve at 1/2 to 2/3 of the side cut radius? Does this happen with little effort on your part? If so they should be ok. As has been said before, most folks who come to PMTS after learning traditional technique are not bending the skis into clean arcs, so my bet, playing the odds is that you want a ski one step softer than what you have for learning PMTS.

IMHO, you also have to separate what is the best ski for learning, and what is the best ski for killing it. As an example I (160 lbs, speed demon, been carving clean lines for decades, albeit not short radius ones - didn't do those until I traded in my SG skis for the SCs) mostly ski on a Fischer WC SC. It is a great ski. I love skiing it. I also get to demo skis and trade off with other patrollers. One such ski was a Volkl all-mountain ski from a few years back (full cambered, low to mid 70s width, 170 cm, bindings mounted a about 2 cm forward, and soft flex). If I were to choose a ski for learning PMTS I would want that ski rather than my SCs, because of its softer longitudinal flex. Yes I would give up some of the performance at the top 20% of my SCs range when really pushing it. However, for learning it is very helpful if you are not skiing at the speeds and with the forces required to make my SCs come alive. Just like it is easier to learn to ride a motorcycle with a 250 cc engine than a 750 cc engine (even though the 750 is more fun). You don't need the added burden of "handling" all that horsepower, weight and torque while leaning to ride a motorcycle, and you don't need all the extra force required to bend a stiffer ski. Managing all that stuff while trying to learn is like herding cats; one or more of them starts to get away.

As to being in the backseat, could be lots of reasons for that, other than the skis.

[Max_501]

But what really matters is what you do with the ski, and how you do it. When you look at your tracks do you see nice clean grooves laid down in a curve at 1/2 to 2/3 of the side cut radius? Does this happen with little effort on your part? If so they should be ok.

Are you saying that with little effort a skier should be able to bend a SuperShape with a 12m radius into a 4 to 6 meter arc?

[François]

But what really matters is what you do with the ski, and how you do it. When you look at your tracks do you see nice clean grooves laid down in a curve at 1/2 to 2/3 of the side cut radius? Does this happen with little effort on your part? If so they should be ok.

Are you saying that with little effort a skier should be able to bend a SuperShape with a 12m radius into a 4 to 6 meter arc?

No, not 4 to 6, 6 to 9. I'm saying that if bending a 12 m sidecut ski to a 6 m to 9 m radius (ok bearing in mind the "to" say about 9 m) at the sharpest point of the curve, that varies from infinity at transition to minimum at apex is a challenge to him he needs a softer ski.

[Max_501]

I'm saying that if bending a 12 m sidecut ski to a 6 m to 9 m radius (ok bearing in mind the "to" say about 9 m) at the sharpest point of the curve, that varies from infinity at transition to minimum at apex is a challenge to him he needs a softer ski.

Bending a 12M ski anywhere close to 6M would be a serious a challenge for any developing PMTS skier - actually it would be impossible unless the ski was a noodle. Even if the ski is soft enough to be bent that much and if the skier has the skills it would take a HUGE effort to make it happen.

[François]

I'm saying that if bending a 12 m sidecut ski to a 6 m to 9 m radius (ok bearing in mind the "to" say about 9 m) at the sharpest point of the curve, that varies from infinity at transition to minimum at apex is a challenge to him he needs a softer ski.

Bending a 12M ski anywhere close to 6M would be a serious a challenge for any developing PMTS skier - actually it would be impossible unless the ski was a noodle. Even if the ski is soft enough to be bent that much and if the skier has the skills it would take a HUGE effort to make it happen.

Fair enough.

I would not call myself a high level intermediate skier if I couldn't carve a 9 m turn on a 12 m sidecut radius ski. Perhaps my interpretation of "intermediate" is off. And when I read "high level intermediate" what came to my mind was maybe what would spring to yours if he said "advanced".

You have far more experience with these terms than I do. What objective test can he do with his skis to see if they are soft enough for a good learning tool?