geometry head vs. rossi/lange vs. dalbello

[theorist]

I'm in the market for new boots, and had an interesting discussion with my bootfitter about the differences in geometry among the Head Raptor, Lange RS (=Rossi Hero) and Dalbello Scorpion. He pointed out that the Raptors have significant varus in the clog's heel -- about 3 degrees (if you look at the boot from the back, the middle seam running up the back of the heel tilts outward) (the boot board itself is level -- only the clog has the tilt; effectively it's like standing on a level surface and having your ankles slightly tilted out). We didn't have a Scorpion on hand, but he said it has a small amount of heel varus (maybe one degree). The RS/Hero have no varus.

In addition, the Scorpions displace the foot laterally (outward) by a few mm, the idea being to place the ball of the foot closer to the inside edge of the ski. Just based on leverage, this would seem to make it easier to tip the inside ski, and harder to tip the outside one (a good thing PMTS-wise). Neither the Head nor the RS/Hero do this.

In summary, the Rossi/Lange are neutral with respect to heel varus and midline displacement, the Heads have strong heel varus but neutral displacement, and the Dalbellos have moderate varus and some midline displacement.

Any comments on the PMTS implications of these different geometries?

Interestingly, unlike cuff alignment and canting, a shop alignment can't tell you which of these geometries would work best for you -- they only clearly reveal themselves during skiing. So it would seem the only way to determine which is best for you would be to set up all the boots correctly (including temporary cants), and demo each of them while being videoed.

[jbotti]

My $.02. In a perfect world this analysis is wonderful and it could help you find a boot with a stance that is perfect for you. Knowing that we don't live in a perfect world I would focus more on shells that fit and then ask these questions. To expand on my point, I can't ski Nordic boots because their 315mm length is voluminous on me and their 305mm is way too small. Same with Lange where their 27 is 317mm (so even a bigger problem than the Dobies). It is hard enough to find a shell that really fits and for most people this may occur in one or two brands. This being that case when you find a shell that fits well, then you do the work that needs to be done to refine the stance and obviously the alignment/canting. No boot has enough forward lean for me but we fixed that. Many of the issues you mention like lateral displacement will affect how much canting you will add or not add.

IMO, find a boot that fits and then deal with any of the issues that come with that boot. Or if you find two that fit choose the one that has the fewest issues to correct.

[theorist]

My bootfitter is trying to get in a Raptor 130 RS, Lange RS 130 SC, and Dalbello Scorpion 130 for try-on (though it's a bit tough this late in the season); my instep is too high to fit any of the RD boots. He also lent me an older Raptor (2008 120 RS, gray color) for demo, and is trying to get me a demo Lange.

[DougD]

+1 to jbottis post

If the Lange RS 130 doesn't give you enough room over the instep, but fits well otherwise, you might consider the RX 130. It's higher there by a couple of mm.. Available in two widths, like the RS.

[zuschauer]

Now you are making sense!! Concentrate on fit…. the geometry can be sorted out. If your instep is too high for a Head Raptor, the Lange and Scorpion will also probably also be difficult for you. The Tecnicas (9.8/9.3) are good possibilities as well as their cousins ….Nordica Dobermann/Patron. The Tecnicas have a good and workable geometry and boot board (and are very much Nordica clones).THe Nordicas depending upon the model may be less than ideal with their "high tech" bolted in footboard. (zeppa) Why Technica? They often have more instep space (height above that area) Not great for someone with a lower, flatter foot, but just the ticket for †hose who struggle w/ the space of a Lange/Head/Scorpion etc.

All the boots I am mentioning are a last width of 98mm or less. So… try to get the Tecnica in the mix as well.

good luck,

Richard

[theorist]

Now you are making sense!! Concentrate on fit….

I believe I was making sense to start with . Fit has always been paramount for me -- this is not my first rodeo; indeed I made two prior posts, in earlier threads, specifically to see if there were other PMTS-approved boots I should suggest to my boot fitter that would be good candidates to fit my high instep, etc. Alas, I got no responses then -- ironically it's only by asking about geometry that I finally got some suggestions about candidates for fit!

The reason I asked about geometry was two-fold. First, I anticipated the possibility that I might encounter a fit toss-up, in which case geometry would be a good tie-breaker. Second, it's a worthwhile question in its own right; indeed, given the frequent attention to boot set-up in the PMTS racing forum, I'm surprised these specific differences I mentioned haven't been discussed more explicitly.

Anyways, I tried the Lange RX -- it felt a bit sloppy; the sweet spot for me seems to be in the second-tier boots -- the RS's from Head and Lange, etc. I mentioned the Nordica to my boot fitter -- he said he wouldn't put me in this year's Nordica, given my instep; he said next year's could work well, but he doesn't have any of next year's in my size. I haven't been able to get my hands on the Technica 98; I did try the 95, and it didn't feel right. He was able to get a Raptor 130 from another store, and Lange has the RS 120 SC (the stiffest flex in the SC is a 120, not 130 -- my mistake) in stock. He may or may not be able to score a Dalbello Scorpion 130.


Moving on:
1) How much should you be able to tip the boot with your ankle only, in the direction corresponding to free-foot tipping (foot inversion)? Harald posted that WC racers can't tip their boots much at all (their boots allow very little lateral ankle movement), and thus most of the tipping action comes not from significant ankle inversion, but from the tension of pressing the ankle against the side of the boot. I.e., for them, it's not the movement of the ankle that activates the kinetic chain, but the pressing of the ankle against the side of the boot. But I'm not a WC racer, and I won't be in that kind of boot, and I'm wondering if a recreational skier might find it easier to activate the kinetic chain if there is some lateral movement of the ankle itself.

2) When you try on boots in the store, in addition to the usual (walk around, flex, etc.), do you actively press the ankles against the sides of the boots (especially the lateral sides) to make sure you can do that comfortably? I've started doing that, since it would seem to better mimic the actions of my feet on the hill.

[jbotti]

2) When you try on boots in the store, in addition to the usual (walk around, flex, etc.), do you actively press the ankles against the sides of the boots (especially the lateral sides) to make sure you can do that comfortably? I've started doing that, since it would seem to better mimic the actions of my feet on the hill.

For me, all I do is find a glove like fit. I know that if I get that I will be able to tip. Of course tipping in the store will let you know if there is something that hurts when adding pressure in that direction so it's worth checking that.

BTW, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but IMO a good fitting boot should not feel good when you put it on. It should be too tight in the store. Feet expand in warmth and liners pack put rather quickly so the tightest a boot is ever going to feel is in the store. This may not hold for someone with a very thin very low volume foot and obviously a high instep issue has to trump this. My wife has a very high instep and incredibly small, thin low volume feet and it has been a real journey getting a boot that can both be tight enough and also have enough instep room. She is presently in a Tecnica 110 (there women's race boot) in a size 21 (the smallest size made by any manufacturer). We put a size 22 Nordica foam liner in it and then we had to cut the plastic away from part of the cuff to create enough room for the instep.

You seem like you are on the right path. Find a boot (or more than one) than can accommodate your instep issue. Choose the one with the tightest fit. The real issue will be if the only boot that will accommodate your instep really doesn't fit.

[Max_501]

The reason we don't discuss boot fitting in detail is because it can be difficult to get a proper boot for your particular anatomy without an experienced HSS bootfitter. I'm sure there are others that can do it, but my understanding is that HSS has seen students that were fit by a pro that are still not in the right boot for PMTS. In some cases HSS can "fix" the boot but in others a new boot is needed. Needless to say that can be a very expensive path.

Unfortunately the boot geometry discussion is irrelevant until you have had HSS do your footbed and alignment measurements. Once that is done they will suggest a boot that best fits your anatomy and alignment needs.

[theorist]

.. my understanding is that HSS has seen students that were fit by a pro that are still not in the right boot for PMTS. In some cases HSS can "fix" the boot but in others a new boot is needed. Needless to say that can be a very expensive path.

Are you saying that they were in boots that fit but weren't proper PMTS boots (i.e., rotary boots)? Or that they were in proper PMTS (lateral) boots, and they were fit well, but the particular geometry of the boot wasn't appropriate for them (e.g., they were in a Head Raptor but should have been in a Dalbello Scorpion)? The former can be easily avoided by sticking to PMTS-approved boots (which I'm doing). The latter is trickier.

The reason we don't discuss boot fitting in detail is because it can be difficult to get a proper boot for your particular anatomy without an experienced HSS bootfitter. ...

Yeah, I hear you, that would be the ideal. But I'd like to think I've developed a pretty good sense for when a boot's alignment is right -- last time I visited HSS they agreed with every detail of my own internal assessment of what was fine and what needed to be changed. I'll add I recall HH posting that ultimately this sense is what all skiers need to develop for themselves, since only they are inside their boots. But what I have no sense for is the functional implications of the different geometries, hence my question. I infer from your response that one can't make general statements about this, and how each geometry affects a skier is skier-dependent.

[Max_501]

I'm saying that some students end up in a boot that isn't ideal for their anatomy, period. No additional analysis is required.

I infer from your response that one can't make general statements about this, and how each geometry affects a skier is skier-dependent.

Exactly. And keep in mind that alignment changes with the boot. My Doberman 130s required a different setup than my Head RS 150s.

[Max_501]

Yeah, I hear you, that would be the ideal. But I'd like to think I've developed a pretty good sense for when a boot's alignment is right -- last time I visited HSS they agreed with every detail of my own internal assessment of what was fine and what needed to be changed. I'll add I recall HH posting that ultimately this sense is what all skiers need to develop for themselves, since only they are inside their boots.

Where did HH say that a skier should be able analyze their alignment needs based on feeling?

[theorist]

Where did HH say that a skier should be able analyze their alignment needs based on feeling?

I don't remember whether it was on the forums or his blog, and I wasn't able to find it with 20 mins. of Google searching. What I do remember is he was discussing how Diana has an advantage in fine tuning her boots because she has developed the ability to sense for herself what adjustments are more or less likely to optimize them. He added, speaking more generally, that ultimately you are the only one with access to the internal sensations in your boots -- the implication being that the best result comes when one combines the measurements and observations made by the fitter with sophisticated feedback from the skier. The idea wasn't that you should be able to do without external confirmation but rather that, if you develop the ability to gauge alignment from feelings you can more quickly, and precisely, dial in the boots. A good example would be your time with Idahorob. It took you guys some trial and error to figure out that he needed less heel lift in his boot. If he had the kind of internal perception Harald explained Diana had developed, then he would likely have known from the start that he had too much heel lift, vastly speeding up the optimization process (which of course still needs to be confirmed externally). Further, you guys found a zeppa that worked well for him. But with Diana's internal perception, he might have been able to nail the optimum zeppa even more exactly.

Conceptually, none of this is different from what we are supposed to develop for our skiing -- an association between our internal feelings and outcomes, right? If I have a problem keeping the inside foot back, then I can correct this much better if I know exactly what internal feeling (for me!) corresponds to an inside foot lead vs. when the inside foot is correctly pulled back. That way, when I feel the former, I immediately correct to the latter. Of course, this takes external confirmation -- you need to do runs where you allow the inside foot to lead, confirm this is happening with a PMTS-trained observer, and pay attention to what that feels like. Then do others when the PMTS-trained observer confirms you've held the inside foot back, and pay attention to what that feels like. Eventually you develop the internal cues that tell you whether you are skiing correctly vs. not, which is what is needed for immediate self-correction.

I'll add I certainly don't have the kind of internal perception that I expect Diana does, but when I went to HSS with my current boots I told them I thought the only thing I needed was for the zeppa to be reduced from 7 degrees to 3. They agreed, did the work, and confirmed it with video. I think if I hadn't been able to tell them that they would have figured it out for themselves, but it would have taken longer, and they might or might not have gone all the way down to 3 degrees.

Anyways, sorry I couldn't locate it -- perhaps if Harald remembers he could give you the link.

[Max_501]

Wasn't that post with regards to fine tuning?

[theorist]

Wasn't that post with regards to fine tuning?

I don't recall exactly, but my guess would be yes -- I think the idea was that even an expert boot fitter can only get you so far because he/she doesn't have the internal access you do.

[Max_501]

I don't recall exactly, but my guess would be yes -- I think the idea was that even an expert boot fitter can only get you so far because he/she doesn't have the internal access you do.

I suspect you may have read too far into the message. We are talking about adding the thickness of a credit card to a cant plate, serious fine tuning and there aren't many that are at a high enough development level to know they need it.