A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby jbotti » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:12 am

docmartin wrote: I have to admit that I am very surprised that some, most prominently Harald, have gone back to "rubber" boots. It would make me cry if I had to.


There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to the Dodge Boots and Plastic plug boots. Dodge boots have a distinct advantage over plastic boots at the very top of the High C portion. The grip with Dodge here is other worldly and incredibly confidence inspiring. But plastic boots are superior lower in the arc at the apex where there maximum pressure has been built. The dodges don't give and they lack feel in the apex of the turn. On ice they simply chatter at this portion of the arc and that is why no one on the WC uses them. Everyone loves the grip at the top of the turn but no one can stop them from chattering on ice. I find as does Harald that I can get more ski bend throughout the arc with plastic boots and while it requires more finesse in the high C with plastic boots, the ability to bend the ski more is of greater benefit to me than is superior grip in the high C.

There are two other reasons who some have switched back to plastic. First the dodge is a 98mm lasted boots and that is too wide for many of us. Head Raptor B2 150's are significantly tighter than the Dodges and the B3's are quite a bit tighter as well.

Lastly, with so much less give in carbon, the Dodges are definitely tougher on the knees. I have mild tendinitis in both knees. In my two (might have been 3) seasons in my Dodges my knees barked the whole way through both seasons. I thought I was just getting older. When I switched back to plastic all those issues went away immediately and I go through the whole season now with no tendinitis issues.
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby geoffda » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:58 am

theorist wrote:Geoffda, any way to tell the specific model year? I understand last year they improved the ski-ability over the year before by reducing or eliminating the outward deflection of the cuff, to take away some of the abruptness at initiation (or something like that - they call it a "mellow mod").

Sorry, can't tell that from the pic...
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby theorist » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:33 pm

jbotti, it would be neat if you guys could get on the new ones and let us know if the changes they've made ameliorate any of those issues.
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby jbotti » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:39 pm

Well we know that the last size is still 98mm so it's still going to be wider than ideal for my foot. With it still being a carbon fiber boot I will bet that it would still flare up my tendinitis. It's possible they have fixed the chatter on ice issue. If so I do think you may see some of these boots on the WC eventually (but there are still massive sponsorship deal issues in the way).

Having said all that I am the last guy to do a test of a new boot. I require so much canting (4.5 degrees on my right side) that I can't really test drive boots because before I can tell if they work for me I need to modify the boot in way that can't be reversed. As well I require additional forward lean which also requires further modification of the boot. Maybe we can find someone that requires no canting who can try the new model.
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby docmartin » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:26 pm

I ski the newer model that was meant to address the chatter. Living in the east I ski on icy groomers much of the time. I ain't no Harald but I mostly ski fast, edge locked turns and bend the skis a lot. Harald actually found that I apply too much forward pressure for the Dodge - they are not stiff enough for me - and installed a device to beef them up. I have not found any issues with chatter. The world cup is obviously a whole different level...
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby theorist » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:07 pm

The Dodges didn't feel right to me, so I returned them. I liked the upright stance, but they don't seem to have the right shape for my foot (too high over the ball of the foot, too low at the highest point of the instep, and they bite the sides of my heels so it hurts when tipping; also, the last seems straight, and my foot is -- as is typical for high arched supinators -- curved), so I need to look elsewhere. I couldn't assess how they skied because they pushed my knee in and, given the fit, it didn't seem worth it to try to dial in the alignment. They had about the same stiffness as my current boots.

My local mountain has several shops, but none of them carry adult race boots (most who buy race boots are on the local team, and they just come in with pro-form orders). As I'm a 24.5, I was able to try on some junior race boots, whose fit should be the same as that of the adult models. The Head B5 crushed my instep. But the Rossi Hero WC 110 SC (short cuff) fit well -- very similar to my current boots, which are race-stock Rossi Course KX's from 1998. I guess boots have gotten taller, since the Rossi short cuffs are the same height as my current boots. Is there a PMTS position on cuff height?

I reported this to my local bootfitter, and he said the best candidates to test (he can order them in for try-on) would be the Head Raptor 130 RS (he said my instep is too big for the RD boots, as evidenced by my experience with the B5), and the Dalbello Scorpion (not the new full-on race model, since that wouldn't have enough volume). But he cautioned me that the Dalbello is the tallest of them and, with its spoiler, could push me forward. He also mentioned the Head has more varus in the cuff than the Rossi, which is more neutral. If we decide the Rossi fits the best, and I still want the short cuff, we can order the Lange WC 130 SC, to get the stiffer flex. I read the recent post saying that HHS is considering adding some Langes to its line, but I'm not sure if they consider these particular boots acceptable.

One foot is 241 mm x 86 mm, and the other is 235 mm x 91 mm. I have a high instep and prominent ankle bones. Generally, the true WC boots (e.g., Raptor B series) are too low in volume, so I need to be one step down. Because I have short femurs, I need an upright cuff and relatively flat zeppa (HSS ground my current one down to 3 degrees). I didn't need any canting in my current boots. Any suggestions on other boots we should take a look at?
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby Hobbit » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:47 pm

Choosing the boot based on the forum advise makes no sense to me. Some boot fitters are OK but most are not. If you think the one you are dealing with is OK, go with it.
I personally would not trust the boot fitting advise from no one but PMTS certified boot fitter.
In the long run you might save a lot of money by getting a cheap round trip ticket to Denver. I am not saying that HSS service is cheap (I am not saying they are too expensive either) but you get what you are paying for. If you just call the shop, I think they will give you an honest advise and estimate.
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Re: A Pretty Good Deal... If They Fit...

Postby theorist » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:42 pm

Hobbit wrote:Choosing the boot based on the forum advise makes no sense to me.

As I thought I made clear in my post, I'm not choosing a boot based on forum advice, I'm simply looking for some candidates:

theorist wrote:Any suggestions on other boots we should take a look at?


My bootfitter and I will be doing the choosing.

I think my bootfitter is very good, and in the past I've been a pretty good judge of this -- the last pair I had fitted were pronounced fine upon subsequent examination by HSS, with no modifications needed except the one I identified to them beforehand, which was grinding of the bootboard to reduce zeppa. A trip to Denver would be nice, but it's not practical for me at this time.
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